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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 0:59:38 GMT
Hey guys, it's Sayha~
This is kind of stemming from an idea I (and Weaver) had as well as a brief discussion in the cBox, and I want your guys' feedback and suggestions.
As a scribe, I am able to make "Basic Contracts" which are as it says simple which is like a simple trade agreement or something along that line. So I was thinking that maybe they could be researched more into possibly maybe contracting with a monster/beast. However I feel the problem comes into what kind of beasts can be contracted and what can the contracted monster do.
I do not want to step on the toes of any Summoner or Animal Trainer (I keep saying tamer but you know what I mean). So to maybe nerf them, each person can only have 1 contract at a time, and said contract can only last for maybe a certain duration. Another possibility is to just be able to contract beasts and turn them into pets and make them totally non-combatant, but they can still travel with you.
From what I can understand, Animal Trainers can use any monster that they train and use them in combat (they get 1 slot at 11 and another slot at 21 if I'm understanding the subclass page correctly). Summoners can have various summons that travel with them, and Shamans have Shikigami that they can summon as well.
I'm pretty sure to make such a scroll is going to need more than just a basic contract. Weaver thought about combining them with Magnus Cards, but I'll have to look more into it. Though before I do too much serious research, first I would like everyone's opinion, especially because I want to make sure its plausible without stepping on any class or subclass's toes.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 1:20:17 GMT
I would think, if it were to be deemed possible, it would need to be done by a very high level Scribe. A concept such as this is not something a low-leveled Scribe could accomplish.
However, I do not feel the idea is viable. Yes, it would be absolutely awesome if everyone could Summon a monster or a pet or a whatever but those are class-specific concepts. Unfortunately, we all can't be every class, because then there would be no diversity and really, it would suck the fun out of the RP, in my opinion. If everyone can do everything, no one can ever be different or the best at their thing.
The only possible concept here would be non-combat pets. I'm iffy on this as well as I don't want to devalue the Animal Trainer subclass. Many people enjoy the Animal Trainer class simply for the companion aspect of it.
I think these types of summoning scrolls are best left as rare event rewards. Being able to summon a monster when your class doesn't allow you to is something to be respected and inspires awe - you accomplished something impressive and your reward is equally impressive. Such as the Griffin from the LH anime, having one was something that really reflected Shiroe's longevity and status in the world. He had done impressive things and had something to show for it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 1:36:05 GMT
Yeah, I definitely understand the higher level Scribe. I'm thinking that I should be at least level 20 or 25 before I should start working on this project.
I guess for me in my stand point, I see Animal Trainers as like Hunters in WoW so that their animals are combatant so maybe that's where I'm kind of missing something in terms of its use...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 1:58:04 GMT
Then maybe once the Magnus Cards are used, we can all start going around Viridian Forest, and then everybody can have a Pikachu of their own! Gosh, I love Pokemon, too!
In all seriousness, the concept itself steps on the toes of everything. As Sugar said, the companionship that an Animal Trainer can have with their pets is something worthy of it being its own subclass. Cancelling that out would be a big middle finger to any current Animal Trainer who wanted to just have a road partner, not for anything combat-like. Taking that away removes at least half of the value of the subclass. Along those same lines, it's infringing on a Summoner's ability to conjure up mythical beasts for either combat or non-combative purposes. That's also like giving everybody a specific Summoned ally to have with them for non-combat purposes, taking away from even a Main Class, despite it being only for a specific weak monster.
Another thing to keep in mind, is that this goes against the main purpose of a Scribe's Basic Contract, even if it would be researched into something bigger than what it is now. Looking at the crafted item's description itself: "A basic contract for anything the two partys signing the contract want." This would imply that the second party, whatever animal or monster involved is, would be okay with being bound to this scroll, and losing their individual freedom. Even a Docile monster would not readily agree to something like this. Such a thing would either require the one forging the contract to be able to speak to the monster, which means Tongue of Nature, and then somehow convince them to give up the ability to do as they please, to answer the beck and call of a person whom they likely know nothing about. In order to even begin to make that work would require the Animal Trainer's Pacify skill (as an example), to get them to not attack the one attempting to make the contract at all.
As another note of importance, the Basic Contract also says this: "Since it is the very basic one, it has to be 50/50, the requirements have to be small, the drawback from not fulfilling it is very small and it needs one witness." This implies a few things. The first being that binding an animal to a person is a massive requirement, as it requires giving up the freedoms of the animal or monster, like it was mentioned above. The second is that the summoned monster does not even need to stay with the user, and can just wander off, with little to no repercussion to itself. It would be like having a level 100 Pokemon with only 1 badge; it has far more important things to care about than some undeserving master. This, however, is a lesser point, because the Basic Contract can be upgraded upon, so that it could heavily advantage one side way more than the other if one was evil enough to do such a thing.
So, as a crafted item, I do not think such a thing could happen, logically speaking. Even if the one crafting it is a high level in their crafting class. This kind of object is game-breaking, given this site's lore.
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Post by Fletcher on Oct 24, 2015 2:06:00 GMT
As a Summoner (And I think the highest levelled one active on the site), I honestly have no issue with this. Of course, there'd be ground rules for the research and excution to occur, but I'd thought about this already. If one were to make these scrolls, they'd have to be consumable objects for sure, and like any other scroll-type item I can find reference to in MMOs or otherwise, they fall into one of two effects: - One use effects that are otherwise not as strong as the real deal but don't use MP
- Cosmetic effect that functionaly has no other use than to be visible
If we went the latter option, then all that might happen is you may see more people with Carbuncles following them around, which honestly isn't all that big a deal. If anything, it'd make being an actual summoner more of a surprise moment when suddenly the beast following you around jumps into battle and isn't just for show.
The first option is achievable in theory with a few things, and extends to the sorceror spells as well. Magnus cards trap the power of the spell, the contract dictates how it can be used, scribe puts it all together while the spellcaster provides the actual spell effect. Granted, it's not going to be easy to research, and isn't going to be cost effective for everyone to have all the spells in the world, but for emergency situations, distilling a healng spell into one could work.
This is where I'd recommend starting for a research recipe for inspiration.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 2:14:03 GMT
Royah:
Yup I do see your concerns. If it were to be based more on a contract, the person using said scroll would have to pay the beast in said contract back maybe my giving it mana or something along those lines. I would need to look into that more.
Weaver:
Yeah, that looks like a good end goal. The duration of said scroll would probably be like 10-20 seconds and only one scroll could be used per thread. Maybe it could even be used to call upon a magic (or monster) that gives a temporary buff on all party instead of going into direct combat.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 2:21:35 GMT
I appreciate the effort but I'm still not, personally, seeing anything that makes me feel this is viable or fair.
The biggest thing I think that needs to be remembered in this situation is... when you select a class and your subclasses, you are also NOT selecting the other classes. Each class has its strengths, weaknesses and its purpose. By being a Sorcerer or a Monk or an Assassin or a what-have-you, you give up the ability to be a Summoner or a Cleric or a whatever else you are not. If we allow everyone to dip into the Summoner or Animal Trainer world, then next we will need to allow everyone to cast fireballs, because the next suggestion will be "Can I use a scroll to summon magic fire that shoots at people?" and that's not fair to Sorcerers. Each class is different, each character is different. We all can't have everything, as I stated before.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 2:27:54 GMT
Yeah, that makes sense.
Though do you think that scrolls that give buffs (like i talked about in the previous post) minus the whole summoning something would work?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 2:33:06 GMT
I just very quickly skimmed through the thread, so forgive me if someone already suggested this, but I think that a way we could have this but still limit it to where it doesn't make Summoners or Animal Tamers obsolete is have it so a level 31-60 Scribe can make a Summon Scroll for a Tier I summon, and a level 61-90 Scribe can make a Tier II summon. This way it does limit the creation to relatively high level Scribes, and even the highest level Scribes cannot make the Summoner/Animal Tamer totally worthless because they can't sign a contract with Tier III summons.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 2:47:44 GMT
Okay thanks for all the feedback. For now, I think I'll shelf the idea of summoning scrolls as a crafting item. Maybe I'll come back to it for maybe some other purpose.
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Post by Sark on Oct 24, 2015 3:38:46 GMT
The pitch: Scribes make a contract of some type with a monster. Its utility and power to be determined later.
The potential toe-stepping:
1 – Class: Summoners. They summon 1 or more fully powered animal companions who are as immortal as its summoner. No drawbacks, no dangers. There is MP drain.
2 – Sublcass: Animal trainers. They summon 1 (up to 3 at higher levels) specific individual creatures. These are mortal, and are at full power. No MP drain.
My recommendation: Have the scribe unlock “Equipment Reforge: Monster Contract” This would be an intermediate (lvl 30+) reforge ability that only scribes can perform and over-rides any other intermediate reforge on that piece of equipment. It could be seen as an advancement of the existing recipe “runed blade” and an advancement of “basic contract.”
The reforge level is the max level that the summoned creature could be. Creature is immortal like the summoner class, but at only half the power that a summoner’s creature would be. There would be MP drain.
Why it could work:
Summoners – It is at half power. They can also use it.
Animal Trainers – It is at half power. They can also use it. They still get their MP free companion.
It is an alternative, not power up: The OC would be choosing to have a companion instead of benefits such as nullifying elemental damage, stealing MP, or all skill cooldowns (all powerful effects)
Similar Approved Ideas: Metal bat weapon, which comes with the custom reforge [Increased Projectile Knockback]
But Sugar we /can/. Look at Dumah - he is a swashbuckler who uses fireballs as much as his sword. There is the all-class ability to summon fireballs, to heal others, to use any weapon, to use any armour, to have weapon combos … all of those abilities are “toe stepping” on sorcerers, clerics, samurai, guardian, swashbuckler and assassin. Denying people a watered down summoner ability seems odd given the history so far.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 3:53:45 GMT
Sark, you are missing the point entirely. Those abilities that people can use, like Dumah throwing fireballs? Those are skills. Titled Adventurer Skills, because everybody can grab them, at the cost of a main class skill slot. Not items that a person can craft. If a person made an item, as you are suggesting, that they can use, even if it is a watered down version of the skill, then why would people even take those skills to begin with? As with your "Approved Ideas" portion, that item does not give a skill. It gives a reforge. A reforge that can be placed onto any other weapon in existence on the site, should the owner or crafter choose to have it done so. What other purpose does the Metal Bat have? It's a weapon. Not an item that gives the user the ability to have a skill, which would cost a skill slot. If any moderators are looking at this post, I would like to make a personal request, concerning the Metal Bats, since the topic is fresh. I'd like to ask if there could be a price increase on the Metal Bat item, since it's not fair to have an item with a custom reforge placed on it, at the same price as a normal metal equipment. To have a reforge placed on a normal metal item makes it cost twice as much. Just a personal thought that I wanted to add in.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 3:58:21 GMT
Royah:
I believe that that Metal Bat Sark is refering to is made out of Runed Metal which is made by both blacksmiths and scribes to pre-enchant the weapon. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by Data Holder on Oct 24, 2015 4:16:47 GMT
Actually, I'll step in here for just a moment.
The description for the Metal Bat item is that it "Comes with a reforge called [Increased Projectile Knockback], increasing the knockback distance of projectiles hit by this bat by a percentage equal to the bat's level." So, in essence and in text, it is a reforge.
The Runed Metal Weapons are a conjoined craft, made by both a Scribe and a Blacksmith, so that the item can be imbued with a magical power, similar to a reforge. It's purpose, we derived, was so that it would be more susceptible to elemental enchantments. For a better description of what it was for, a PM has been sent to Nisha, asking for clarification, if they remember. Admittedly, we don't know a whole lot about it, so clarification is needed before we do much of anything else.
All this being said, yes, moderators are looking, and not just Sugar. That being the case, we will be slightly increasing the price for the Metal Bats (15 x Item Level), and clarifying that the reforge of the weapon cannot be removed/overwritten. This update will be taking place shortly.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 4:20:35 GMT
Ah, okay. That would make sense then.
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Post by Sark on Oct 24, 2015 4:37:35 GMT
Sark, you are missing the point entirely. Those abilities that people can use, like Dumah throwing fireballs? Those are skills. Titled Adventurer Skills, because everybody can grab them, at the cost of a main class skill slot. Not items that a person can craft. If a person made an item, as you are suggesting, that they can use, even if it is a watered down version of the skill, then why would people even take those skills to begin with? As with your "Approved Ideas" portion, that item does not give a skill. It gives a reforge. A reforge that can be placed onto any other weapon in existence on the site, should the owner or crafter choose to have it done so. What other purpose does the Metal Bat have? It's a weapon. Not an item that gives the user the ability to have a skill, which would cost a skill slot. If any moderators are looking at this post, I would like to make a personal request, concerning the Metal Bats, since the topic is fresh. I'd like to ask if there could be a price increase on the Metal Bat item, since it's not fair to have an item with a custom reforge placed on it, at the same price as a normal metal equipment. To have a reforge placed on a normal metal item makes it cost twice as much. Just a personal thought that I wanted to add in. I'd be just as happy for it to be an adventurer skill, but it seems cooler to reward proactive crafters (like Sayha) than to have Saki grant it without anyone'e effort. That is why I am suggesting that this summoner-like concept be at the cost of awesome reforges. You get a whole bunch of skills (31 class skills in total), but you only get 1 intermediate reforge. What your reforge does is an important choice; it can give important things like reducing cool-downs of your signature skills, increase the damage, defense or heals given. I think it would be a genuine choice between say a lvl 50 item which grants: (a) + 12.5% damage and heals HP equal to 12.5% damage dealt by non-skill attacks to an enemy. (b) +12.5% damage and summons a LVL 25 golem to fight beside you at 5% MP per turn (as an example) Which is also why the metal bat is a joke item more than anything else :) There are only a very few niche builds that would benefit from [Increased Projectile Knockback] over say [Increased Damage]. It is also why literally no-one on this site uses it as a weapon. Sayha: I should have been more clear. The metal bat is a special weapon that blacksmith can forge which comes with that particular reforge, while the runed weapon is a seperate item made by scribes+blacksmiths as an alternative to a grimoire. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2015 7:55:45 GMT
I do believe that having it as a reforge effect would be way too op and kind of unfair. I think that if something summoning something it should be an adventurer skill instead of an item. Though in the future, I may look more into 100% cosmetic/non-combat pets. I do not see these stepping on any toes as they can't be used in combat whatsoever unlike Summoned Creatures or tamed/trained pets from an Animal Trainer.
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