New Economy = Broken

[Saber]

So, as I was going through the equipment list and preparing to make myself some new gear, I began to see a problem. Actually, I saw it from the beginning the moment the new "economy" was implemented. The cost to craft is ridiculous and it makes creating things not worth while. A player would be better off saving their money and swinging around a level one stick for their climb to ninety than buying new gear. Why? Because the balance between profit and crafting is near nothing. Hence why the Funeral Parlor is no longer open.

The old economy allowed players to make money steadily and we didn't have to worry about anything. We could play the way we wanted to and there were no issues. No one complained about the money system except for the staff and maybe two oddballs in the CBox. However, money was shared and there were no issues put up into the Support/Suggestion page. The system was broken and there was no economy and people were happy. I made my jabs at it and said that there was no economy, and there does not need to be. We're in an RP, I don't think money should matter.

With this new system, in order to make a weapon I must charge an arm and a leg for it in order to make a profit so that I can continue to craft items for myself and others. What would ordinarily cost someone 500 Gold now would cost almost double as I would have to charge over 100% of the fee. I used to not charge anything because it was far more helpful to the lower leveled players and they were able to make money to sustain their own interests.

Upon reaching level 90 blacksmith, I decided to make new gear for Saber. Now that I see the cost, that won't happen. No, no way. Hell no, and I'm actually even happier that I closed down the Parlor now that I see the cost of these items. If someone came into my shop and asked for anything with a reforge, I'd tell them no after see what the items could come out to be.

But the high prices are not the issue. What the issue is is something I stated since before this system was even in place; there's no way to make a profit. The NPC shop takes items in at a net gain and loss of zero (aka if I make a 1000 Gold sword, it sells for 1000 Gold). Each post I make only gives me 50 Gold and Linking Back only gives me 100 Gold. So with that being said, a simple sword which costs me 500 Gold will take 10 posts for me to make my money back. 10 Posts. Of course, that can be any kind of post whether it be main class or subclass. However, not everyone is active. Not everyone can spit out 10 posts in the matter of a few days. Some people post only once a week; that means 10 weeks before they can get a simple piece of equipment. In addition, some people only level their main class because most of the subclasses are useless to them; so their main class levels up quicker than their wallet. That leaves the problem of a level 50 being stuck with level 15 gear (which break's Luna's immersion).

That being said, I suggest that there be a new system put in place that actually allows for a more balanced "economy", as you guys seem determined to make one, because the current one is a bottomless pit. There's barely any profit margin for crafting and players have to pay far too much for items that they may never actually use in a DM setting seeing as Raiding is quite rare. Even more so, the only Raid available at the moment is Windsor, which is only a level 20 Raid. Level 20 rules out pretty much any reforge above level 20 and makes them all worthless until another Raid is put in place, or until DMing becomes a more consistent thing.

If people were consistent with leveling and buying gear, eventually there would be no money left in this "economy" because people are shelling out more than they can make by regular posting. Much like in real life. We pretty much work dead end jobs and anything we want to buy has an oversized fat price tag on it because the corporations are money suckers. The only way to actually make money is to become an artisan, level up your subclasses at a decent rate and level your main class at the pace of a snail. Not to mention you have to fight for link backs because its value is twice as much as a post.

So ye. I suggest taking a look at what y'all have decided on, because I don't think it's going to work.

SPOILER: Click to show

--Crafting--

Crafter: Saber
Recipient: Saber
Recipes:

Material Fee:--Paid by Crafter--

Metal Equipment
Materials Required: Material Fee (10 Gold x Item Level)

Scaled Armor
Required Materials: Material Fee (20 Gold x Item Level)

Basic Equipment Reforging
Materials Required: Material Fee (10 Gold x Item Level)

Advanced Equipment Reforging
Materials Required: Material Fee (10 Gold x Item Level)


Reaper's Curse - 3000 Gold
Metal Equipment: [90 x 10] = 900
B.E. Reforge: [10 x 30] = 300
A.E. Reforge: [20 x 90] = 1800

Last Vow - 4000 Gold
Metal Equipment: [90 x 10] = 900
B.E. Reforge: [10 x 50] + [10 x ] = 1100
A.E. Reforge: [50 x 40] = 2000

Heaven's Fall mk I (L + R) - 7800
Metal Equipment: [90 x 10] = 900
B.E. Reforge: [10 x 30] = 300
A.E. Reforge: [30 x 90] = 2700
Double - 3900 * 2 = 7800

Prometheus's Chain - 11650
Scaled Armor: [90 x 20] = 1800
B.E. Reforge: [10 x 75] + [10 x 60] = 1350
A.E. Reforge: [100 x 70] + [50 x 30] = 8500

Geared Soul mk I - 1900
Metal Equipment: [90 x 10] = 900
B.E. Reforge: [10 x 60] + [10 x 40] = 1000

One Hundred Thirty - 4900
Metal Equipment: [90 x 10] = 900
B.E. Reforge: [10 x 30] + [10 x 50] = 800
A.E. Reforge: [20 x 60] + [50 x 40] = 3200

Total Cost: 33250 Gold
Reaper's Curse - 3000 Gold
Last Vow - 4000 Gold
Heaven's Fall mk I (L + R) - 7800
Prometheus's Chain - 11650
Geared Soul mk I - 1900
One Hundred Thirty - 4900

Requested Items:

A Reaper’s Curse – Level 90 -- [Image] -- From the grave, thousands of souls cry out for vengeance and retribution, but not all of them shout to the living. Some shout to the one who commits the deeds of death, the Reaper, for robbing them of their freedom. The one soul who is forced to commit tragedies every moment of his soul’s eternal life, the one who is forced to perform actions which many could not even dream of, is cursed. He is a nightmarish figure who is cursed to watch death every second of his unending life, to perform the work of the Gods with an unwavering will. It is a wonder of how so many still question why he dresses in black or why he is so quiet. A lone figure that has seen an infinite number of people, creatures, and unearthly beings pass in both gentle and grotesque ways. Could anyone blame his silence? Could anyone blame his lonely and heavy shadow? One does not and upon seeing this, the Reaper blessed the Blacksmith with a part of himself. This blade is a gift from the being who floats in a place where time is frozen forever, and where there is nothing but agony and despair.

[Reforge Effect: Damage Treated as Magic Damage - 180%]

Last Vow -- Level 90 – [Image] --Humanity is strange. Throughout a human’s life, he will make many promises. Some of these, he will keep but many of them, he will break. Lies will outnumber the truths spoken and the number of enemies made will outweigh the number of friends loved. However, in a human’s dying breath, they will recant all of the pain they let out onto the world, beg for forgiveness, or apologize for what they have done. As if wiping their hands clean and washing away all of the muck and blood that had accumulated on their hands. This blade is the embodiment of life’s end. It is the creator of the last breath, the pen which sets the will in motion, and it is the axe which cuts life’s binding chain and frees the soul. No one knows what gives the blade its power, not even its crafter but one can feel a looming presence when near it. It is dark, heavy, but coaxing as it leads the weak to transcendence.

[Reforge Effect: Physical Resistance Pierce - 10 Levels / Melee Damage Increase - +12.5%]

Heaven’s Fall mK I [L] -- Level 90 -- [Image] -- In war, not all battles are fought at length. There are times when the walls collapse, when the line breaks, and it is in those times when the true men shine. For it is in these times that all sanity must be left behind; it is you, or your enemy. There is no middle ground. Kill with your hands and take their lives, or have your own be taken and leave your family behind. Many warriors who have stood on the line recognize this time. It is cold, and it is frightening. The sight of your potential doom is something which makes even the strongest men quake. However, it is in this time that many men find themselves. Grab hold of your destiny, Soldier. Stand. Fight.

[Reforge Effect: Heal HP equal to 22.5% damage dealt]

Heaven’s Fall mK I [R] -- Level 90 -- [Image] -- In war, not all battles are fought at length. There are times when the walls collapse, when the line breaks, and it is in those times when the true men shine. For it is in these times that all sanity must be left behind; it is you, or your enemy. There is no middle ground. Kill with your hands and take their lives, or have your own be taken and leave your family behind. Many warriors who have stood on the line recognize this time. It is cold, and it is frightening. The sight of your potential doom is something which makes even the strongest men quake. However, it is in this time that many men find themselves. Grab hold of your destiny, Soldier. Stand. Fight.

[Reforge Effect: Heal HP equal to 22.5% damage dealt]

Prometheus’s Chain – Level 90 -- It is said in mythology that the same Titan whom created man betrayed the father of the gods, Zeus, many times. He tricked Zeus, protected man and defended him until one day, Zeus had enough. Prometheus was taken from his kin and chained to a mountain where he was to remain for eternity while an eagle pecked and feasted on his liver. The chain which held the Titan was made out of an unbreakable diamond chain and could not be broken by an ordinary soul.

This armor, made up of multiple layers of scales, covers the user’s entire torso, abdomen, and their upper arms above the elbow. A set of leggings can also be worn to protect the wearer’s thighs and groin. Underneath the armor, a layer of cloth has been attached to keep the metal from roughing up the skin and making it uncomfortable to wear. As a reflection of the indestructible chain, the armor is colored a faint silver color and has a soft shine to it when struck by the sun. However, in the dark, the armor almost fades into the black. It is suggested that when attempting to be unseen that the armor be worn underneath something.


[Reforge Effects: Reflect 17.5% of Non-Physical Damage, 8.75% of Skill Physical Damage / Passive Defense Against Bosses - 30%]

Geared Soul [mk I] – Level 90 -- [Image] -- Repetition, repetition. Tick, tock, tick tock. Live your life by the sound of a clock, like a metronome. No emotion, no fear, but never ending. Eternal. It is constant, it is everlasting, and it is a curse. There is no joy, there is no sorrow, and there is only the lonely cold floor which supports one’s feet. A life full of living like a puppet, like a doll, there is no satisfaction in that. It is a hard path, but it is one which is long. Tick tock. A clock’s sound never ends. Time continues, there is no pause. But in such eternity, there is beauty. Much like time, true love never dies. Submit your soul to the warmth of another, you sad machine, and let that metronome tick.

[Reforge Effect: Ranged Damage Increase - +15% / Inflict [Bleed] on hit - 10% Chance]

One Hundred Thirty -- Level 90 -- It is said in Legends that there was once a cult that hid in the mountains to the North. This cult gathered up children from the surrounding towns, kidnapping them in the night with the sounds of their flutes and music. Where did they go? Nobody knows. However, two strays which returned home told of the tale, told of the sounds. They did not know where the others were led, and they did not tell of who was behind it all. A total of one-hundred thirty children were led astray and not a single one has been seen since. Families mourned their losses and cities fell silent. For almost a month after the abductions, in the distant forests, music could be heard along with the sounds of faint screams.

These arrows, made out of all metal except for the feathery fletching, were created to remember the One Hundred Thirty. Each arrow in the quiver symbolizes a life which had been stolen and each arrow is marked with a name. These names were retrieved from the records building where the list of missing children can be found. When using the arrows, one can almost hear the children pleading for help.


[Reforge Effect: Damage Treated as Magic Damage - 120% / Physical Resistance Pierce - 10 Levels]

Standard Craft Thread:----
Speed Craft Thread: --Crafting + Reforge--
Bonuses: --Bonuses Posted with Crafts--


Equip the Item? ----

[Murasaki]

You are trying to make endgame gear, no? In practically all the MMOs I've played, endgame gear takes millions or billions of in-game currency to craft. In any case, reforge prices were based on the stock market gold economy, so we'll take a look at how to better price it.

Consider that weapon prices at low levels are rather inexpensive. A Level 1 weapon costs 10 gold. A Level 10 weapon costs 100 gold. That's one and two posts respectively. If someone doesn't post enough to a point where it takes them 10 whole weeks to get 10 posts, chances are they're not going to be needing that 500 Gold sword. They're likely going to be closer to the lower levels and as such, they wouldn't require nearly that many posts. If you're a Level 50 and you don't have enough for gear of your own level (which, as you've said, people can currently turn in their equips for 100% of their gold) then I wonder whether you've been reckless with your money.

The economy update is a work in progress as we'll be adjusting prices accordingly based on player input. However, don't think that because you had a silver spoon in your mouth, being able to previously craft using billions of gold without any fear of losing profit, that you should say that you now have to rip off other people to survive. Because now you're at endgame and you have the opportunity to help out other people starting out. You choose not to. You're the corporation.

On another note for those working, there will be a new system of Commissions in the near future that rewards creative crafters. Look forward to these challenges ~

[Shuwen]

You’re making a bunch of endgame equipment. It would be pretty strange if it wasn’t expensive. And considering the total cost is only about a quarter of your total cash, I’m not really sure why you’re complaining about it. If you’re worried about other people, see my fourth paragraph.

In the old system, no one complained about money because money was a non-issue; the interest system generated more money then most people could effectively use. At that point, there might as well not even be money.

If you could sell equipment for more then you paid for it, it people could just make money endlessly via speedcrafting. The current set up gives abilities that reduce material costs value, which I consider a good thing.

Managing how quickly you level up is a thing. A lot of people like to just power their way through their main levels, but that isn’t necessarily a good idea. I also believe you’re exaggerating how much you’d need to slow it down.

Granted, there ought to be more incentive to leveling subclasses. The mods are (apparently) working on that already, but we’ve yet to see results. I also agree that the value of (semi-)consumables and other non-equippable items could be balanced better.

edit: Aaaaaand sniped

[Saber]

Apr 7, 2015 19:20:12 GMT Murasaki said:

The economy update is a work in progress as we'll be adjusting prices accordingly based on player input. However, don't think that because you had a silver spoon in your mouth, being able to previously craft using billions of gold without any fear of losing profit, that you should say that you now have to rip off other people to survive. Because now you're at endgame and you have the opportunity to help out other people starting out. You choose not to. You're the corporation

First, saying that I had a silver spoon because I used the tools the Staff themselves provided to me and failed to regulate I feel is misplaced. The increase in gold was not our fault and us having any kind of spoons in our mouth was because of the Staff's mistake with the stock market and not putting it to use correctly. Due to that failure, everyone was quite comfortable with the way things were. However, after seeing your mistake blow up in your faces, you all pulled the rug out from everyone and now we're in this situation. So please, don't try to use the silver spoon you gave me.

Second, it isn't the fact that I have to rip people off that makes this broken. If I want to charge someone for a sword and still make a profit, I have to charge more than what would already be seen as expensive. I can't help people starting out if I myself cannot make money and I won't because my gear, as you can see, is expensive as all hell. Yes, endgame gear is meant to be expensive, but I have almost no way to make any of the money back that I spent. The only way for me to make a profit is to charge other players an absurd amount. For lower level players, equipment isn't expensive so yes, it'll be easy to regain the money for them. For someone like my level; 33k is pretty much out of reach unless I spam posts or get lucky with a bunch of linkbacks.

[Saber]

Apr 7, 2015 20:21:14 GMT @sugar said:

But I am curious Saber, what else do you plan to need money for? You have a large chunk of gold by comparison and you can easily afford your awesome end game lvl 90 gear (which I think should be expensive by comparison). That type of gear isn't something that needs to be re-made often (or ever?) so yeah your gold takes a hit but you'll earn it back bit by bit by posting/link backing and crafting for others, so I doubt you could ever reach a point where you actually zeroed out and ended up broke or anything.

I need money so that I can aid players under the level of 30 with getting decent gear. I classify "decent gear" as gear that they can safely raid with. This gear is level 20, has reforges, and can actually help a player rather than just be dead weight like a lot of armors and weapons are. I classify "aid" as being able to cover at least 25% of the cost of the gear without being murdered by it, while also being able to sustain my own needs. My needs, as you can see, are extremely expensive and not worth me even getting because of the lack of raids. So if I'm going to pay out my backside for something, then I'd at least like to have something to do with it. Because of me not being able to do anything with that gear unless either a mod decides to start an actual plot line, and unless I want to de-level myself, why should I have to sign my soul away? It's an uneven trade that the Staff are asking for.

Being able to assist the lower levels with getting their gear and actually help them costs money; money which I can't get unless I charge them. Said charge ends up costing them more money than they may have.

[Shuwen]

Saber, a level 20 weapon with a reforge costs, what, 400 gold? I'm pretty sure most players who've rped enough reach that much can comfortably afford gear in that price range. A full set of two weapons/shields, armor, and 4 accessories only costs about 2000 gold. For an ENTIRE FREAKING SET. That's hardly unreasonable.

[Haneroze]

1000 gold for a level 100 weapon? Isn't that... not much at all? If you do 250 words per post, by the time you get that 1000 gold, you're only level 11. If you do 1000 words per post, then you'll be level 26. You'd have to do over 9k words (No joke intended, that's the exact result of my calculations!) per post in order to not have enough for that sword by the time you reach level 90.

Furthermore, in any good game, it will always be impossible to make more money by selling a crafted item to an NPC. If you buy 50 gold worth of material from NPCs, craft a potion with them, then sell the potion back to the NPC, you will normally get no more than 25 gold back, and that's very generous. Some would make it no higher than 10% the material price. If you could, then you'd essentially have an exploit where a player can generate an infinite amount of money, thus destroying entirely the value of money.

A good game economy design would instead make everything to make players want to sell to other players. Selling to NPC generates money and causes inflation. Selling to another player generates no money and may even have taxes, causing deflation. If a player wants to make money, then he has no choice but to interact with other players. 

-------------------

From my experience in a game that placed a lot of importance (too much in my opinion) on economy, it would go like this:

-Quests and monsters would give almost no money, and NPCs would buy items at 10 Kama at most while you'd usually be holding at least 100'000.

-If a regular player wanted to make money, he simply had to sell his drops to other players. The prices would vary, depending on how often dropped and how wanted the drop is by other players. Naturally, that means low level drops farmed by bots had extremely low value, while very rare boss drop had a very big value.

-The only way to get any of the equipments is to craft them. Monsters don't drop equips after level 50 (max: 200), and NPCs only sell equipments up to level 10. And a character can only have up to 3 jobs out of around 20. So you have to interact with other crafters.

-As a crafter, you would never buy the material yourself for a player's request. They have to come up to you with all materials needed, and you simply craft the item. Crafters usually request a crafting fee depending on the required crafting level.

-If you craft an item to resell, it's because you've noticed the total price of the materials is much cheaper than the resale price of said item. This will never be the case for NPC selling. Also, by doing that, you essentially increase the price of those materials and decrease the price of the crafted item due to the laws of supply and demand. So such techniques usually don't last long as nearly every crafted item eventually ends slightly cheaper than its total material cost (unless it's upgraded or you got perfect stats on it). And by doing that technique, you risk not having anyone buy your crafted item, thus losing money.

-When you upgrade your equipment, you also sell your previous equipment back to other players, hopefully to the same price you bought it. This essentially means that even if you upgrade your equipments often, you don't lose much and keep slowly building up your money for your end-game gear.

[Rook]

This was hard for me to read. Harder to write a response, but I feel I must.

Balance, like beauty is subjective.

I feel that if you’re making yourself ‘ultimate’ last gear you’ll ever need style stuff the concern should not be how you’ll recoup the cost. The cost, the journey is a part of the reward.

[Icyferno]

I just so happened to look at the main site for a change because I had accidentally done everything I had to do, and look what I find. Time to throw my two cents in.

To Saber, let me just say that there is no particular need to force yourself to help the newer players. If they run into money troubles, tell them to go to this subforum and air their grievances about the economy, because it would prove that your argument holds true. As for making a profit via crafting, charge a reasonable crafter's fee. It may take some time to obtain a fee that is reasonable to all levels, but once you've established it, you should be able to rake in additional income that does not involve posting or linking back. This way, you don't really need to charge others exorbitant fees for crafting, which in turn allows more people to access your shop.

Of course, seeing the cash roll in is generally a feast for the eyes (and mind), and when you only see money flying out of your wallet, it's a sad sight to behold. It's easy to say that it's broken, but as mentioned many times since they 'fixed' the economy, it's a WIP. Think of it like the alpha build of a game, riddled with bugs which are slowly coming to light. It may not have been your intention, but the way you phrase things tend to seem spiteful sometimes. People then reply without actually getting to your real problem, that making a profit is difficult. If you still feel that total profits are too low, perhaps you might want to start a thread with a suggestion to improve the economy in an immersive way, to get all those realists to support you (e.g.: Gold incentive for researchers to act as 'the money obtained from selling your recipe').

---

Moving on.

As for endgear equipment, I agree that there should be some difficulty involved in obtaining a full set, so if someone's struggling to craft them, there isn't much of a problem. However, what I do agree is an issue is that we lack higher tier dungeons which give better loot to players.

Haneroze mentioned that 'in a game that placed a lot of importance (too much in my opinion) on economy', players were fine. However, unlike the aforementioned game, we lack the 'very rare boss drop' which 'had a very big value'. The only way to make money here currently is to make RP posts, link back and charge a crafter's fee for crafts, all of which yield little profit. If, Murasaki, you intend to implement an economic system similar to 'practically all the MMOs' you've played, you may want to set creating more dungeons in the various areas as a priority, unless those MMOs functioned without the clearing difficult quests/raids/tasks to get valuable stuff. In that case, you might want to share how the system worked. Saber's spoiler effectively shows that it's quite costly to craft strong gear that can do more than just farm ordinary mobs. Yeap, Haneroze definitely didn't see the spoiler.

At this point, some might begin formulating a reply along the lines of 'you'll still have enough money to not go bankrupt', but please, read on.

The current assumption is that there is enough money to obtain a full set of end-game gear, possibly even for an equipment intensive class like Swashbuckler which probably needs 20 of such pieces. But let me just point out that this goes beyond a full hunting kit. If one were to follow the immersionist in themselves, they would find themselves paying for potions to use in-combat, food and drink for daily necessities, housing to stay in, furniture and art pieces to furnish their homes, clothes for all sorts of occasions, nifty alchemy gadgets, mounts, and the list goes on. Rook does have a point that a large cost is part of the journey to create powerful gear, but do those same players walk around with only the expensive gear that they worked hard to make? That, and as an older, more experienced user of the site, Saber feels inclined to help the newer people, but finds that this system prevents him from doing so without a decent opportunity cost to himself. This creates a rather stiff environment, where people may end up having to give up on some of the finer things they want just to get by. Being realistic is good, but too much of a good thing is a bad thing. At the end of the day, what kind of experience do you want people to take home? Saber had good reason to do what he did, that is to help people obtain the things they wanted more easily, something which I am sure many of us would want whenever we embark into the unknown. At the same time, as a person, Saber needs to keep reserves, but these two goals conflict. Unless this was something intended from the start, then perhaps this may need to be relooked.

To sum up what has been written, I definitely agree with Saber that the system needs reworking. To the mods, continue to take input to improve upon what has already been done, and I look forward to an improved, balanced economy, and a happier Saber.


See y'all during June Break (or on the cBox),
Icyferno

[Haneroze]

I indeed did not see the spoiler. But that just brings me onto something else I've noticed in same MMORPG I've previously mentionned: Expected vs Luxury.

In that game, there was one big problem related to equipments: they did not have any apparent rarity. You would have an equipment forged solely from regular monster drops, and another equipment forged from boss drops. They may both be the same level, but the boss equipment is clearly stronger. The developpers intended the average player to progress using the regular equipment, but because of the lack of visible rarity, players simply assumed the regular equipment was junk and set the boss equipment as the norm when it was intended to be luxury for the players that participated more in the economy.

I see Saber's point as this same problem. The norm is simply a weapon of your level, one you can afford through money earned from normal progression and that still works good enough. The reforges are the luxury that you're expected to be able to afford if you farmed for some money. If you reach level 90 through normal means, then you're not meant to afford a full set of reforges. And in fact, end-game luxury is always hugely more expansive than the rest as you're expected to farm for them while you've reached the final level.

Although that means there is a problem: Are we given enough means to "farm" money? If you get rich from crafting fees, that means you got a lot of clients, but you're normally expected to have competition from other crafters, and there's a limited amount of roleplayers in our format, let alone roleplayers that are approaching level 90.