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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 20:02:58 GMT
Rough Concept Idea – Dungeons & Drops
There are a couple dungeons available to players currently but they're sort of infrequently used or forgotten about, from what I have seen. There isn't much incentive to take on a dungeon as a party as these dungeons are not currently GMed/DMed by the mod staff. In an effort to add more dungeon/party quests and a reason to actually do them, I have been considering a Dungeon Drop List which relies on the dice-rolling system to randomize rewards from Dungeons and Party Quests based off of a pre-made list of items.
Each Dungeon would be given a list of Basic Requirements to Clear and, possibly, a list of Advanced Requirements to Clear. Parties wishing to take on and complete the dungeon would have to follow the outline and completion requirements. Upon successfully meeting all of these requirements, at the end of the dungeon each participant would include a roll in their final post, which would determine their reward. If applicable, a separate list for Advanced Rewards would be provided and drops would be from that listing. These rewards would be posted up in the Claim Center for official approval but are automatically considered to be provisionally approved.
For those of you who were in the cbox when I originally mentioned this idea, you'll know that I also discussed that I'm terrible at item lists and things of that nature so this idea is personally difficult for me to fully realize. If there is interest, I can try to continue to work on it with help from others and the rest of the mod staff. In addition to adding requirements and Dungeon Drop Lists to the current dungeons (I think there's 2? Maybe 3, I can't recall off the top of my head) I would like to see a few new Dungeons added.
I would like to hear thoughts and discussion on the idea. For items, I'm not thinking anything game breaking and the majority of items would be things more along the lines of “100 gold” or “5 Health Potions” as examples but mixed in would be rarer, more desirable items. Especially if an Advanced portion was created.
If it's to go forward (and I can't promise it will), it's going to need to be a group effort to make the dungeons, lists, and make sure it's balanced and the items being dropped aren't too boring or too powerful.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 20:50:17 GMT
So I like the idea a lot, especially the idea of having more dungeons to explore. I think the only two solid canon dungeons are Windsor Castle and Londinium Underground.
As for items that are dropped, most items I've seen in games are named or somehow related to the boss they drop off of. That being said, not every boss has loot for every single class. I think that if you had maybe 2 to 4 items for each boss along with the options of gold, health and mana pots, and maybe even bonus 2 ap or something like that it would be good. Any items dropped could be based off of the boss they came from.
For example the boss is some sort of treant. It should definitely drop maybe an accessory or weapon for the healing class, maybe a bow for damage and maybe even a barken shield. Then the rest of the drops would be like one of the options I said earlier.
That being said, there should be bosses that have better gear for one class compared to another and not everyone should get gear every single dungeon they run or else the items would lose their specialness.
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Do or do not... there is no try.
Human
Inactive Player
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Animal Trainer
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Unaffiliated
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Post by Icyferno on Nov 13, 2015 1:58:07 GMT
There isn't much incentive to take on a dungeon as a party as these dungeons are not currently GMed/DMed by the mod staff. You're... kind of right. Did you see Caer's leaving post? Anyway, another issue is the number of people. While it is true that the party size isn't huge, people tend to... drop off. Just like what happened when I tried to challenge Windsor, and the other parties who tried to do so. Basically, people leave. A lot. I have since given up because of the level gap.I'm all for player-run dungeons, but there will be things to get out of the way. For instance, the guy controlling the combat instances will definitely get free words while the rest lose out. Letting each person write out their own intepretation COULD solve this. Not sure. Another thing is regulation. ...Which I suppose could be cleared when a mod checks their thread to let them claim their things and AP. NEXT. For the objectives, I would suggest enforcing that they writing a note at the bottom of their post or somewhere where it doesn't count in word count that they completed an objective, for easier tracking. Not sure if I would make this compulsory, but it would help mods track when it has been finished. There is a dungeon mapper thingy in the RP Discussion subforum somewhere. It would be useful to some degree. To start off, I think there should be a dungeon creation thread where people post their dungeon goodies in for mod approval. As for drops, I agree that there should be things like gold, potions and (bad) weapons, and the dice system. That makes it more realistic, I guess. Maybe I'll get a good reforge someday. Also, make sure it correlates to the theme of the dungeon, aka what Sayha said. Like the Sidestories thing. Hopefully this may encourage trading, or make people sell more things.
Brain not functioning properly yet, I apologize for bad contribution. Just wanted to get this out of my system before I do the more important things like papers. |
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Human
Inactive Player
Gold:
Blacksmith
Idol
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Apocrypha
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Post by Hirosame on Nov 13, 2015 3:59:58 GMT
So, I'd like to jump in here for just a moment, to explain my own point of view, on being a Player GM/DM for dungeons here.
The first thing I'd like to mention is that nobody, in the history of recorded text, has ever created a DnD campaign for the sake of getting dank lootz in the real life. If such a campaign was to be had and played, I can't imagine it would be very enjoyable. The reason why I started up the Decrepit School Dungeon was to have something for other people to enjoy, while I get to enlist in the joys of being a GM/DM. Granted, this is only myself talking, and I won't belittle anybody else's desire to get something out of it. I just feel that, doing it for the sake of items or AP kinda goes against the spirit of a GM/DM's power and enjoyment. Being the "overlord" in a situation, for no matter how long, should be a reward enough, in and of itself. The ability to watch as the people you are catering a dungeon for work around your traps, or fall into them. Watch them work together, or fall apart, and then land stupid 20's to have them survive. That's where the true joy of a DnD-esque campaign comes to life. The bullshit of the dice rolls, and the adventure through the dungeon.
However, as I mentioned before, I don't support the desire to get something out of it. I would like to mention, though, that getting AP for GMing a dungeon? That's highly illogical, mostly because, as the GM, you are likely not playing as yourself. If you are, and you're still playing GM things, then that's kind of selfish, as you would already know all the twists and turns to the dungeon, and one could just as easily steer their character into a scenario. I'm not saying that it would happen, though the chance to do so is there, and that chance is, I feel, unfair to the rest of the party. So, that's my stance on getting AP in the dungeon itself, as the GM.
On the flip-side, though, I have spoken with Sugar about a thing that a GM could be given, as a result of having completed the dungeon. The GM would be given a character-specific item, meant ONLY FOR THEM, to provide some kind of a personal flair for themselves. Nothing game-breaking or advantage-inducing, but just a fun thing for them to have, calling it their own. Such things could likely be discussed with moderators, or an idea that the GM has for their own benefit, which they themselves could present to the moderators, to have it either be approved, denied, or worked upon. As a GM, your role is to provide a fun story for the rest of the party to enjoy, as well as struggle through, in some cases.
Anyways, I'll shut up for the time being, having thrown in my 2 cents where they likely aren't needed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2015 4:01:54 GMT
Yeah, I was definitely thinking about items being related to the dungeon they drop in. Some items would be tradeable/sellable and I think some wouldn't, just to keep things rare and special. Gotta run it to get it. Also may encourage people to re-run the dungeon to get things they weren't able to obtain the first time.
As far as people leaving, that's just sort of the nature of forums and RPs in general. I've been on many and some people stay for a very long time and some poof all of a sudden or pop in from time to time. It could be possible to use a "Swap In" mechanic that allows one inactive character per dungeon to be swapped in with an active character. That would need some hammering out to make it make sense IC, couldn't just have people falling from the sky. Well, you could, but haha.
As Hiro already mentioned, he and I discussed and came up with the idea of a GM/DM Item. A special item awarded only to the GM upon successful completion of the dungeon. This would either be pre-determined or up for discussion. Pre-determined might be easier. I don't see AP conversion being the answer for GMs.
There would need to be some confirming to make sure requirements were met, yes. Minimum words, posts, etc would be big requirements because those are easy to check. Other ones, yes, it would be helpful and probably required that an OOC Note was included when important aspects of the Dungeon were completed, to allow for faster review.
I would like to start with designing the dungeons first. In addition to the two Sayha mentioned I believe there is also the Temple of Tides. I think creating descriptions, maps, floors, monsters, bosses etc to create the proper atmosphere and environment for the dungeon is a good first step. Once the "feel" and "design" of the dungeon has a good base, I think making fitting item drops and requirements for completion will come a lot easier.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2015 4:12:47 GMT
Maybe to help with the problem of missing people, each team could maybe have a "back-up" roster of like one or two people who have agreed to step in in case a person goes missing during the dungeon. I know in games like WoW that if you're doing dungeon finder and a person leaves, another person will come in to take their place. And once a person has been replaced by the "back-up" they are then put on the back-up roster... also there should be an official time limit on how long to wait for someone to reply before initiating the "back-up" function... like 72 hours or so. I think that would help keep dungeons on-going and help them not stall out.
I do agree that the DM/GM should be given some sort of item for doing their job, and however you decide to award it, I'm behind 100%.
Oh I did forget about that Dungeon, Sugar, my bad... Though maybe somewhere on the site once we get a few dungeons we could have a list of said dungeons and links to their general sub-forums... It's not necessary right now but once we get a few dungeons, it would be nice to have a visual on what dungeons we haven't done.
Further down the road for another idea, maybe you can give rewards to "veteran" dungeoners like slightly better level of loot or something along those lines.
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Dwarf
Inactive Player
Gold:
Tailor
Acrobat
Guild:
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Post by Sark on Nov 13, 2015 9:49:56 GMT
Rough Concept Idea – Dungeons & Drops There are a couple dungeons available to players currently but they're sort of infrequently used or forgotten about, from what I have seen. There isn't much incentive to take on a dungeon as a party as these dungeons are not currently GMed/DMed by the mod staff. In an effort to add more dungeon/party quests and a reason to actually do them, I have been considering a Dungeon Drop List which relies on the dice-rolling system to randomize rewards from Dungeons and Party Quests based off of a pre-made list of items. [...] If it's to go forward (and I can't promise it will), it's going to need to be a group effort to make the dungeons, lists, and make sure it's balanced and the items being dropped aren't too boring or too powerful. I like the idea! But I don't like the idea of randomised loot. It works in MMOs only because a raid takes 1-5 hours to do, where as in an RP it takes 1-5 months to do. Spending a couple months of "actual character danger" posting for no reward is not a good incentive in my opinion, especially when those posts can only be claimed for AP at the completion of the thread. I think either have predefined loot (eg: You will get the master sword from this), or have the dungeon provide carefully generic loot - just like how we have the Windsor Antiqua items at the moment. (eg: Completion of the Windsor Castle dungeon might give you a "Windsor Castle lvl 20 armour" of your choice) . This is not unreasonable by MMO standards either, with plenty of MMOs providing predetermined rewards for completing quests or dungeons. Providing more Enchant Scrolls would be nice too. They are very few and far between at the moment. I disagree - we already have the overflow system where lvl 90 characters get AP of their choice for doing anything at all. Rewarding and encouraging DMs for their effort is no different IC than the overflow system. In my opinion getting AP would be preferrable rather than getting a vanity item as I am not already max level :P (and if we are playing the IC card, getting is less mood breaking than getting a hat that says #1 DM). That, and giving AP for long posts encourages the DM to properly set the mood by describing the setting, not just the actions taken. Why do we want to encourage re-running the same event? Grinding (and by extension dungeon re-running) is a concept encouraged in RPGs and MMOs to take customer money. If it takes 6 months for someone to get to max level, then that is 6 months of membership fees. If it takes 3 months to get that rare loot, then that is 3 more months of membership fees. It is also a way to stretch out content, as if it takes you 50 play throughs to get the items, then it means the designers need to make less dungeons. But we're not in that situation. The mods aren't getting money if it takes Sark longer to get get to level 90, and as a player I can create an infinite number of locations. One thing I would like us to do, if possible, is to move from the MMO maker mindset ("hey it's really effective levelling/item grabbing doing the same dungeon for 30 hours of gameplay where there are challenging bosses with real time reactions and complex tactics required") to a DnD campaign DM mindset ("Hey we are all spending precious time doing this, so let us making it fun and meaningful."). We can't pretend to be MMO game designers because MMO storytelling is balls. People don't play MMOs for the storytelling, they play it for the action. We don't have the action, so I think we need to either therefore encourage storytelling, or encourage creativity. The DnD (and other tabletops) world also has some great knowledge on how to deal with dungeons, drop-outs and more :) No need to reinvent the wheel. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2015 18:11:09 GMT
I just woke up and I don't feel well, so bare with me through this post.
Randomized drops and the drop list are key aspects of this entire idea. Currently, there's no drops for running a dungeon and every so often, people do them anyways (because it's fun). As I don't play DnD, I cannot base my ideas off of it. I don't play any Tabletops and I have, to be honest, a personal history of someone ruining a RP forum I loved by trying to turn it into a giant DnD campaign so referencing that is not a good way to get me interested in your ideas. This isn't a game of DnD and, believe it or not, our RP is based on a game which is an MMO so MMO-like aspects popping up from time to time shouldn't be surprising.
Running a dungeon should be a risk, both for your character and your reward. It should also, primarily, be about the interaction between yourself and the other people you have partied with. The fun of RPing it. The Random Drop at the end is a bonus, a "wow, yay!" moment at the end of what should already have been fun. I do not want people running dungeons knowing what they're going to get because then you're running it for the wrong reason.
My character is also not level 90 and I helped come up with and continued to back the GM Exclusive Item. No one said anything about it being a 4th wall breaking hat, either so please don't make assumptions and belittle ideas without even asking for more details. Although I know a few members do enjoy joke items like that, though. That being said, being a GM is a choice and something you do because you enjoy it. If you need encouragement to describe the mood and setting than you probably didn't sign up to be a GM for the right reasons in the first place. AP will not be a reward for GMing, I just won't do it. AP is given out too easily in general these days and I don't plan to make that worse.
As I said before, these dungeons will not be for dropping game-breaking or god tier weapons, gear, items etc. We're talking stuff between level 15-30 for regular dungeons and 30-50 for the advanced ones. This cannot eliminate the need for people to request crafts. "Oh I don't need a blacksmith, I can just run Temple of Tides because I know I'll get this item I want which is amazing" <- not happening.
Why would we not want people to run a dungeon again? It's their personal choice if they want to do that. How someone spends their time RPing their characters life is their business. If dungeon crawling is what makes their character giggle, let them run it as many times as they want. It doesn't hurt anyone else if someone wants to try 5 times to get all of the dungeon gear, just to say they have it. It's not grinding if you have fun and develop your character in a way which you enjoy.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2015 18:54:43 GMT
Okay so giving my opinion again.... we don't need to pick between either DnD or MMO.
HOWEVER Since the RP is based on a manga/light novel/anime that is in an MMO, the MMO should be our base. I don't see how it is "balls," and I disagree with this completely. I play MMOs for, guess what, story telling. I love the lore in video games, and I know I'm not the only person out there. A part some people keep forgetting is that second part of MMO is "RPG." They way I see it is that you get to RPG, and the bonus is that you don't have to do it alone. Also MMO's have more content than regular RPGs, and you have more options of things to do. Playing devil's advocate and also going off the "action part," then you're saying there's no point to a thread when there is no combat? Social threads have no point? Exploring has no point?
Now going back to not picking between the two... I, personally, have never played DnD, but I have heard quite a bit about it between chat on this site and friends that I have who extensively do Table Tops. However, I do believe that we need DnD concepts when it comes to dungeons. I think that they're solid concepts to build on for the GM to run a dungeon. Loot should be randomized but not guaranteed.
As for another comment saying that we're risking our lives in dungeons and raids and etc... guess what? The game makers, I doubt, intended on us getting taken to the world the game is based on. Mechanics and other such should honestly not take this into effect... it certainly wasn't in the anime. Also, I think you're getting the lengths of dungeons and raids mixed up. From what I've seen, dungeons in this world have say 1 to 3 bosses. Even if you struggle on a boss and die, it would take only about a day RP-wise to clear if you're party is geared and ready for the encounter. Raids, if we ever get a 14 boss raid, would be what takes a lot of time. However if its like 1 boss... I'd say it would be a week RP-wise tops assuming that your party is ready for the encounter.
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Human
Inactive Player
Gold:
Woodcrafter
Cavalier
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Post by Mikoto on Nov 13, 2015 19:17:02 GMT
Going to respond in kind toSuagrss posts and pick out how I, someone who runs dungeons/raids/events with the loot in mind, see's it.
If its just gold an potions you'll be hard pressed to get anyone to run them. You'd make more gold just rp'ing it then you would completing it thus making it better to just write normal topics. The potions while nice are in fact not as helpful as the 100 gold. I can see them being neat to have but not nice enough to merit running a DM'ed dungeon to get them unless they're special in some way.
Right. So, whats going to make some keep something they don't want? Say for instance I run "Dilapidated Hospital of Horrors!" and walk out with a Nurse's Uniform that's clothe armor. I don't want it but I can't sell or trade it. Now I'm stuck with this armor and its eating up gear space I could use for something I'll actually use. Everything should be sell-able. Now I can understand that issue with people shifting higher level gear to weaker players/characters breaking the game BUT BUT I think items coming from raids should have a minimum established value that they are able to be sold for. That or allow players who got something to don't want to pay say 500gold to trade in for one time per run the item they got that run for a random chance at something else. I'd do it if I got the Nurse's Uniform when there is a chance for the Hypodermic Needle Rapier.
Right, Sugar that's a noble aspiration to have there. But you'll always have people like me running it just to get the drop not too interested in "story" or "Rp'ing". Yeah RP'ing is involved anyways but there will always be that person(s) who don't give too much of a shit about character interaction when rewards are on the line. When I play Destiny, and this is a big problem in PUG groups, and raid Oryx(most recent raid) there is always the chance of getting booted by someone so they can bring in a friend so the friend gets loot without doing any of the work. Its shitty but that's how it is. Not saying that'd happen here because its not bloody possible but you'll always have someone who couldn't care about interacting with their raid team and they just want the gear drop.
You mention a risk for the character. Whats there to risk? In this universe we don't/can't die permanently. How should it be a risk? Is there an entrance fee of some amount of gold? Do I get the gold back when my team clears? Whats the risk? Once in a dungeon can you not start any new threads till completion? In the dungeon once you die do you stay dead till clearing or wipe? Do you spawn out into the cathedral? Can you be res'ed by someone with the ability to res you? Whats this risk you speak of?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2015 20:21:06 GMT
Please note - this is not directed at anyone specific but for all, for any idea, at any time.
No idea will ever, ever be 100% able to suit the needs of every single person and someone will always feel they can make an idea better. It's an endless cycle I've been stuck in before and I don't want to see that happening. We all have opinions on how things can work best, typically seen from our own eyes. Instead of working to change an idea to better suit your own personal goals and gains, everyone has to look at this as a way to better the forum as a whole. If an idea cannot better the forum as a whole, then it doesn't work. If an idea has the potential to improve the forum as a whole, work to hammer out the details of the presented idea, not change the idea to a new one. As a mod, when I suggest and work on new ideas, my goal is to please the majority of members on the forum and do the best I can for as many people as I can because I know I'm not a magical being who can wave a wand and everyone will like it. That's just silly and unrealistic. As I see it, this idea is capable of benefiting the majority of the forum and is viable to increase the average enjoyment people get here. Tweaking is one thing, blasting and entirely changing the idea is not what this is about. That isn't to say that the people who new concepts do not benefit or directly suit are any less important than anyone else on the forum but it is also an optional feature. No one is required to use it. It must be designed and implemented to benefit the majority, I'm sorry but that is the truth. On most forums mods are not asked or required to publicly share new concepts or seek member input, it's decided in a private conversation between the rest of the staff. I could, honestly, just roll this out exactly my way without asking for any feedback at all (which, for record, I don't agree with doing). I want to include the opinions of others to improve a new concept because that's how I think a forum grows. I understand that by telling me the different aspects of how people will use this concept is important and it is helpful but the focus has to stay on the idea as presented. I want to hear all of the opinions but in a constructive way. If it doesn't interest/effect you, please don't turn this into a debate where nothing ends up getting done. Please and thank you.
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Inventory - no limit. There is not a limit on inventory so "useless" gear would never take up a slot for something else. You are not required to equip it, there's no weight limit, etc. It's like ammo, in a way. Yes, in theory you do only have so many bullets but there's no realistic way to enforce that, so it's basically unlimited (and asked to be used within reason).
Prior to this post, I did receive a suggestion from Ox on Skype to assign a gold value to drops to allow them to be resold. I'm willing to work with this idea but I still think there may be 1-2 items which are untradable/unsellable on the list.
You can still run a dungeon whether you're into the story or not but it's just up to you to decide if the potential drops are worth it to your character. Item Drop Lists are an entirely new concept to this forum and are limited to these dungeons. Isn't it better that the items are "weak" when they never even existed in the first place? Something is better than nothing. Perhaps the confusion on this is that this is intended to be a new feature to reward those who were already interested in dungeons in the first place. Just a little enhancement.
"Risk" to your character is a personal thing and mostly handled IC. Some characters care immensely about dying, others don't. If you don't consider the possibility of your character dying to be a bad thing, then that is not a risk to you. But, even if you, sitting behind your screen, know there's nothing detrimental about dying IC, your character lives in this world. The concept of death can still be a scary thing when it's real to you, as it would be to your character. Getting attacked by monsters, when they're actually in front of you, is scary. Think about it, as much as possible, through the eyes of your character. It's real to them, they're really in a creepy dungeon where something could jump out at them at any moment. Even knowing you'll just revive if you die doesn't completely eliminate that adrenaline and fear. That is the risk I speak of, writing things from the POV of someone really living in this world, really being in that dungeon, not knowing what's around the corner (even if, OOC you do). For many characters, that's risky.
Getting this a little bit more back on topic, I did have the idea of perhaps letting dungeons serve as similar to Commerce threads, as in for every X amount of words, you get gold. Probably closer to every 10-12 words, as AP is given at full and a reward is given at completion. This would be claimed in the AP claim, same as Commerce.
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Dwarf
Inactive Player
Gold:
Alchemist
Sigilmaker
Guild:
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Post by Fletcher on Nov 13, 2015 23:32:20 GMT
Sayha told me off for just liking everything and said I should actually postHe's my loose change for what it's worth: Reason for running a dungeon (Player)This needs to be sorted out. Why would I, as a player, want to run a dungeon? There are a few aspects of this, so I'll quickly list a couple: character motivation, IC/OOC rewards, and player motivation. Seem to be the main ones. All valid, but this needs to be sorted as to why dungeons exist in the RP in the first place in their current form. If it's "because they exist in canon", then there should be no reason why there just can't be a huge list of dungeons that exist and say to the players "go nuts". If you want to promote doing a thing for rewards, then what those rewards are (and that seems to be the crux of the current discussion) needs to be sorted. Making the distinction between the character wanting to do the dungeon and the player wanting to do the dungeon is another thing to consider. While Fletcher may want to grind the dungeon for a certain drop or some other reason, Weaver doesn't particularly want to have to wait 6 months for that dungeon to move along at a snail's pace only to have to do it again because it's character wants to. It's just not accessible. Reason for running a dungeon (GM)This is where mods and people like Hiro fall into. For the most part, some sort of satisfaction is needed for this to work. I use the word satisfaction because Hiro is a prime example of someone that likes to run dungeons for the hell of it. Some people want something for their time, and who can blame them? Especially for the lack of staff on the site, and the fact that the mods are just regular people, for a moderated dungeon to run there is going to need to be more hands to deal with this if the dungeons become more accessible or tantalising through rewards if implemented. It doesn't matter what 'reward' is given to people that run them, but it's generally agreed that it can't be too OP or too much of a pittance otherwise it's not going to function as an incentive for people to GM. Again, I say this as an incentive, but people who enjoy GMing dungeons will likely do it anyway because their satisfaction comes with the running of the event and not the payoff. Rewards (Player)Again, options. But they're likely going to fall into something like: -Randomised MMO Loot pool -Set item list (Pick 1) -Set item (Think similar to achievements or trophies) Each have their flaws and bonuses, but this will depend on what you want the dungeons to do. If you want them to be re-run over and over for... reasons, then the last one is out unless you make it something people will want to have multiple copies of. A randomised list while thematic IC is just annoying OOC when you've got (in the current iteration of the dungeon system) potentially twenty items, all untradable, only three of which you can use properly (or even want) and it takes a span of months to get; which you may not even need once completed as you've got months to get more levels and gear while it's all happening. I see the MMO pool style rewards working if you make the dungeons unmoderated and just make sure the people running them aren't just putting out one-liners for the sake of farming rewards, but it would make redoing them less of a chore OOC while still maintaining the same IC feeling. Current spread of dungeonsLet's assume that we have three dungeons for the time being. Windsor Castle fulfills the role of (15-20), Londinium Underground is (20-30), Temple of Tides is (30-40); for instance. I'll say outright I'm just using these as examples rather than knowing what the specifics of each one. For the dungeons to remain thematically appropriate for the MMO genre (Which is what I gather to be important for some people), then the dungeons have to span various level ranges. There is a problem though when looking to rerun the same dungeons if someone's already 40 levels over the highest levelled piece of gear they could get from that dungeon. Alternatively, you can have all the dungeons have various difficulties that impose a level cap (Windsor Castle Super Extreme Hard Mode can be the level 90 version for instance), which will allow all the dungeons to be played rather than being neglected and making some of the effort in designing them go to waste. Also, I think there should've been a poll perhaps on how interested in dungeons people as a whole are; if it only turns out to be 25% of the forum actually like dungeons, then forming parties is already hard enough let alone finding members in your level bracket. Misc Ideas that may work- Scaled Equipment (Celestial Arms style) - Means that equipment won't be redundant in leve and you can lock the reforges to be appropriate to the dungeon to avoid them overpowering crafted gear.
- Commerce Thread Bonus - Basically Sugar's idea. Having a Dungeon thread bonus and just making it another thread type needing to fulfil certain conditions.
- Special Rewards - Windsor Castle Dungeon has one already: Access to the Throne Room. I have no idea what it does, but I want to know as it's a mystery. Special perks like that don't amount to much in the way of raw power, but it does offer something unique to those that have put in the time and effort.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2015 1:13:51 GMT
I'm honestly too tired to say much at the moment but I think an important aspect was either left out or buried here. The whole point of this is so that a GM is NOT required. That's why there's requirements to complete it, so you know what needs done and a group can just... run it. Some people will still choose to have a GM/DM for the fun of it and in those cases, a GM Item would be awarded.
Also a poll was conducted, the Member Interest Survey I had... and if I recall correctly, a large portion of the responses for what people wanted to see more of involved Dungeons.
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Post by Fletcher on Nov 14, 2015 9:06:05 GMT
In which case, I propose the following format:
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The Apocryphal Strategist
Milesian
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Post by Murasaki on Nov 14, 2015 9:50:30 GMT
Considering that Windsor Dungeon is a Level 10-20 dungeon, I should not think that an Old Rusted Weapon should scale in item level at a higher rate than the legendary item that allows you to time travel and defeat impossible bosses. I think a better idea would be to have the weapons/armor give a special effect when they are used either in that specific dungeon or dungeons that have a similar level range.
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Post by Fletcher on Nov 14, 2015 10:02:52 GMT
Naturally, I have no say in the matter as I'm not a mod and won't be implementing anything that gets decided upon. However, while they're examples, they are significantly weaker in reforge effect than a weapon of similar level with reforge effect, and you only get the levels if you grind the same dungeon. While I agree that compared to the Pebble of Philosophy, there are more opportunities to level that item rather than these (granted, scaling could go down in any case).
What would you suggest instead? Something akin to:
"If worn while within Windsor Castle, the user gains +10% Max HP and +5% Max MP"?
Not necessarily that exact effect, but that kind of idea? Would there still be an incentive to run the dungeon if the rewards only boosted future runs with no additional benefit? Only thing I can see that kind of item being useful for would be if you were gearing up for Hard Mode, but even then.
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The Apocryphal Strategist
Milesian
System
Gold:
Narrator
Tactician
Guild:
Apocrypha
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Post by Murasaki on Nov 14, 2015 11:10:53 GMT
Potential effects of a similar level:
"If used in Windsor Castle, gain _____________"
"If used in the Windsor Greatwood subforum, ___________"
"If used in Level 10-30 dungeons, _________"
"If used in Instances or Dungeons, __________"
For dungeons designed with dice mechanics:
"Allows rerolling during a mechanic check for (bosses that do certain mechanics)". Mechanics similar to Megaton Slam by Brachyura in Hard Mode.
"Allows rerolling during (situation checks)". For mechanics not dealing with bosses' attacks specifically.
"Adds +_ to a (situation check) roll."
That being said, the feedback on deciding whether or not to have some of these effects is also on everyone as members as well. Is it possible to have equipment that scale in level every time you finish the dungeon? Yes. Is it feasible to expect people to rechallenge dungeons? Probably not. There has only been one "successful" dungeon run of Windsor Castle. Not even the Celestial Arms questlines are rechallenged after they are completed and many prefer to do Instances as a solo thing.
Back to the overall topic, I feel that one of the potential aims toward completion of dungeons can be that the completed party can suggest a new scenario that goes on with the dungeon. Lore seems to be a historically big motivator for making people want to do special threads or quests in the first place.
Let's say that the first clearing party went into a Tomb dungeon and basically raided the area and killed hostile monsters. They might be able to introduce their own lore into the dungeon, say that now explorers are wandering the tomb and searching for artifacts when they mysteriously vanished. Cue people heading in to rescue them. Let's say that two groups do the dungeon at this point; each of them finishing their threads. After that? Group A might hint that the exploration discovered an old king's tomb and now people entering have been cursed somehow. Group B might conclude their quest by unearthing a passageway to an underground goblin city or something of the sort.
I'd like to say that this would be something that would have the most sustainability in terms of having people do dungeons. It's very easy to remember that completion of a dungeon will likely take a few weeks or months - at best. I should think that for the memberbase, your main priority should be in addressing the issue behind why people don't do dungeons, and that necessarily doesn't have to do with the lack of tangible rewards. Rather, I feel that it's the lack of motivation to want to join a group and then consistently RP with them till completion. There's always an underlying stigma behind not only solo threads, but also threads with a high amount of members. And that's something that the memberbase itself needs to address as well before we can come up with a dungeon system at all.
Run a player dungeon with the same level of anticipation as some of the events going on right now, such as the School Dungeon. Run your own event successfully with your own ideals. Challenge existing rules in the RP in a way where your suggestion not only makes sense but is fair and can also be self-sustained. There's lots of different possibilities for the site to develop and frankly I'm not sure if talking about all of them in threads like this will do them true justice. For whoever believes their idea is a good idea, get it to work. Do something.
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Post by Fletcher on Nov 14, 2015 11:43:28 GMT
In regards to CA, I think it's working great as a means to actively get people to do stuff, and what you say about lore here is important. Even in the two past months people have come up with wild conspiracy theories as to what this all amounts to, driving the urge for some to complete it faster so they can be ready for the next installment. It'd be great to see such a thing happen for the dungeons, but if the mod team is in agreeance to what Sugar is putting forth about a system that is primary run by the players, then there needs to be someone/something in place to be able to check and keep record of things such as your branching discovery thing with the Tomb Dungeon. Again, it's great, I just don't see it coinciding with a mod-less dungeon system. Unless when dungeons are graded, there's a one liner at the end of the thread that says "Party A discovered an old king's tomb" and then the mod checking that off has another thread similar to the timeline and just copy/pastes it in to keep track.
In regards to equipment bonuses, I think targeting the broarder yet potentially weaker effect will garner interest more effectively than dungeon specific equipment. Having a piece of gear that is more powerful in the Windsor Greatwood than just Windsor Castle would promote more RP in that area over areas that aren't covered by that bonus, but (and I'm thinking with the mindset of Final Fantasy XI effects here) if it's something minor like increased HP regeneration, that that seems all the better. Mainly because it's the 'special' thing that someone can look at and say they did a thing of significance to get, but should be reflective of such by not having an effect, or perhaps a more potent effect, than just making it through crafting. Making items unique or untradable play to the favour of the mod team when rolling this out if there's concern for them overtaking crafted goods.
Dice mechanics I've only seen a little bit of and that's thanks to Hiro's dungeon. I'm assuming a lot of the people even newer than I have yet to see them at all, which could be wrong, but because it's not a core aspect of what we do here I'd be in favour of something else. It could work, but a larger rollout for the system needs to happen before people see the worth of such abilities on a wider scale. This is only opinion, but I've yet to find more than one instance where a dice roll has effected anything I've done on the site.
Getting our ideas to work is harder when the perception of us as "non-mods" give us no power to do jack. We can put forward ideas, but there's this invisible boundary saying "No, you can't do that, you don't have authority." I feel this way, and may only be in the minority, but I don't have any recogised authority over anyone else on the forum. I'm probably seeing something that isn't there, and if the mod staff wish us to just make events and recruit people in, then I can get behind that and run a few dungeons.
If we go with your idea of the Windsor Greatwood effecting accessory, would we be looking for a Hard Mode version as well? Is Hard mode even needed if there is a rollout of higher levelled dungeons?
If, hypothetically, we had 9 distinct dungeons and ranged them from 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, etc, Then we could probably do without Hard Mode, which means less rewards to think up, which means overall more dungeon variance among players looking for different unique rewards.
EDIT: Above is probably redundant due to ninja edits, but alright. Good to know where the issues are.
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The Apocryphal Strategist
Milesian
System
Gold:
Narrator
Tactician
Guild:
Apocrypha
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Post by Murasaki on Nov 14, 2015 11:58:40 GMT
Dungeon review too is something that can be tackled in a similar manner as the research committee idea. Members can go back and revisit a completed dungeon and theorize up a bunch of potential plot endings that can be started up from its completion. It's much easier for a mod to give the green light on a well-written suggestion of new ideas for a dungeon than it is to tell the mod to come up with the idea and present it in a way that satisfies people.
I imagine it would be simple to create various scales of difficulty for any dungeon. Maybe have a Windsor Castle dungeon instance with recommended level 30-60, another with 60-90. It's all a matter of whether the setting itself is interesting enough to warrant the difference in difficulties.
Authority and reputation is only as far as you make it yourself. The top people on the site are known as such because of their activity. The cbox regulars are known because they're often in the cbox. What do you want to be known as and how much effort do you want to take in order to achieve your goals? So long as you don't break any forum rules, there's nothing bad about taking initiative to pursue something you'd like to see the forum do. Ultimately it is true that if you're a mod, there's a greater extent of credibility that can come with your statements. But this holds true for people who show themselves to consistently prove themselves in various situations on the site. It's a judge of character essentially.
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