Member-run research committee

[Capsule]

Posting this in regards to Saki's post in Sark's suggestion thread:

Oct 13, 2015 20:31:17 GMT Murasaki said:

One thing to possibly consider to help improve research quality is to create a member-run research committee where crafters get together and discuss and coordinate plans for technology or concepts to craft. I'll leave that to people to decide whether it's something that could work.

I know some of us prefer to keep our research secret until we are ready to propose the finalized project, but I figure this will be especially useful for first time researchers. Some are unsure of what the limitations are, while others may not know where to start, or attempt to make something that has already been done/being worked on. I know me and Icy tend to be aware of what each other is researching, so there is little worry of crossing streams there. I cannot say as much for others, but some do make mention of it in the cbox, though not necessarily to others of the same crafting class (Hiro's hoverboards and whatever Bailin and Klide are working on).

I am mostly just interested in what everyone else has to say, tbh.

Saber Hirosame Icyferno @0x1dea Fletcher Bailin Tobin @shadowsaiph Dr. Ultima Empyrean Sark

[Dr. Ultima]

It might be neat if we were to post abstracts (just a paragraph) of what we want to make and how we figure it will work before making a long crafting research thread only to get denied. Members could offer input to help and perhaps mods could look and preapprove research before it is actually tackled in RP. Of course people might steal your ideas which is kind of lame. To do this we'd have to consider things copyrighted but then that's just another system to deal with and if people go inactive the whole system could lead to stale or inaccessible ideas. I see a lot of potential good in this and a few annoying ways things could be abused or come into conflict.

What I'd really love is a way to make getting collaboration less messy. God forbid one needs another craft for something very small in the overall process.

Crafts that need two professions are the bane of existence!

[Noctis Corvo]

I know this is going to sound like a shameless plug, but I'm not trying to go for that.

As far as what I was planning with forming the guild "Deus Ex Mortis" (when i get a few more for sures) was going to be keeping a public archive of all the research done. I know everyone is joking with me about it being a guild of information brokers and spies (small part of it true), the original plan around it is actually to just create a guild to operate on and centralize the spread out nature of research (hence why its one of the main goals of the guild). Once I raised enough money with the guild, the plan was to purchase Oxford University and turn it into a public network of buildings soley designed for research, investigation and record keeping of the documentations. While the guild members would run it, I was planning more or less IC-ly to keep it open to the public, with the only catch being a slight membership tax, and the IC requirement that all experiments done must be recorded, documented, copied, and have the original documentation turned over for the archive.

TL;DR I've had a plan, its just a little slow at the moment.

[Deleted]

Oct 16, 2015 18:11:24 GMT Noctis Corvo said:

 ...the plan was to purchase Oxford University...

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I've already purchased the building and am currently awaiting for the market claim to be approved.

Back to the original topic at hand, perhaps a commission thread to help encourage collaboration? This allows people to request an item that they need crafted for their project, yet also allows them to retain the confidentiality of their project if desired. For example, a Blacksmith could request a mana coating from an Alchemist to help them with their fire sword project (or whatever it is people want nowadays).

Active crafters can come by here to look for work to earn them a little extra gold instead of people relying solely on one or two individuals to get the job done.

You'd just have to make sure to stake a claim on a 'commission', otherwise we'd have multiple people crafting the same thing (which is what we're trying to avoid in the first place). Perhaps a crafting AP bonus could be used to encourage participation in commission crafting, but that's another thing.

Dunno if this helps or anything, I'm not too active on the crafting scene.

[Deleted]

I just started crafting recently, but I don't think I personally am going to have too much overlap with my own planned projects (which is very minimum at this point).

I agree with Cap that there should be something or at least someplace where crafters can go and talk to another other than CBox, and I do kind of like the idea of having maybe a search commission forum. I was thinking something maybe in between the two ideas, but I'm not sure exactly what that would be.

[Saber]

I keep tabs on what everyone is researching and what everyone is making, even though I don't verbally make note of such things. I don't like to infringe on what anyone else is doing. However, I do make it a point of ensuring that what is being researched won't be a waste of time. I take into account of the timeframe we are in, the limitation of our technological level, the limitations of the crafting classes themselves, as well as the character's own level before making any assumptions of a person's plans to research and/or craft. Cross classing and such is necessary when it comes to certain crafts, they also promote group threading (which is why a lot of my crafts require more than one class when I make them).

As for my own research, I'm usually always trying to advance our level of technology in some way, shape, or form and I'm always looking to make already-crafted items more efficient. By maxing out multiple classes, I have a wide degree of freedom that I can play with and it makes this kind of work easier. I keep my crafts private because for one there is thievery and I like to protect against that (I've had stuff stolen before. Nothing against y'all, but it's not happening again). I also don't like external opinions. If I wanted someone to critique my crafts, then I would say it openly and ask for it. By posting what I'm doing in the CBox, it opens up a door that I personally don't want to bother with until I'm done thinking things over. Plus, most of my crafts are simple enough that an outside opinion is unnecessary.

However if someone is looking to expand their own crafting or needs help, then I am more than willing to provide aid. Ox does have a good idea with the commission thing. By making group-crafting more desirable and by attached a reward to it, people may be more prone to doing it.

The one difficulty with this all is the idea that you have everything you need to make a craft from the start, especially research threads. I think that should be changed. If an alchemist needs some sort of metal object, I don't think they should be able to get it unless they talk to a blacksmith. Even if the thread is just two posts (the two meeting, the blacksmith making the item, and then the trade occurring), I think it should be done. It alleviates the "I don't need anyone because I can just poof it into my hands" ideal. Sure, it's annoying when you're a mechanic because you're working with metal anyways (like Hiro making his trains), but I think it would have been a bit better to force compilation threads. It may slow research to a crawl because people don't want to ask for help, but if they really want something then they'll ask. It'll also keep random crafts from being made because the restriction may not be worth what has to be done.

[/opinion]

[Fletcher]

I'm pretty much for what Sayha has suggested. I'm cool to keep my experiments and research pretty much an open book, but then again I haven't had the same experience as Saber has with people stealing junk. That said, when you start posting your research there's always the chance someone could swoop in and steal the idea if you aren't dedicating every waking moment to finishing it off. I don't think there's anyone like that on the site at the moment, but keeping things a secret is more of a hassle than it's worth. Also means that if it's a secret you can't ask for help as easily.

Saber was a big help a couple of days ago when explaining limitations of our craft system and research, which I went away and thought on before starting my own research on Magitech, and I'd since grabbed Dorian to collaborate on making a Magitech oven as an offshoot on the Salamander run steam engines. I'm mostly relying on the crafting list being accurate though, because if I'm not seeing an Alchemist recipe for something on that list, I'm assuming it'll need to be researched. I'm still new to the research game, but I'm all for collaboration.

[Deleted]

I've skimmed the thread but I like the idea of making future works public so no one is stepping on toes. I believe I also saw a suggestion about a place to discuss ideas and see if they're plausible before starting them. I think that would be pretty easy to make a thread for that, too.

But my thought on people getting an idea and then sitting on it or someone wanting to swipe an idea off someone else. What about just... from time idea is proposed/shared you have X amount of time (a month or two) to get it going or the idea is basically up for grabs? I don't see anyone purposely snatching an idea though, there's not a huge reason to, unless it's been sitting a while. Just deciding how long that "while" in advance would be easier, I think.

Sorry for intruding on your thread XD

[Sark]

Oct 16, 2015 17:31:44 GMT Capsule said:

Some are unsure of what the limitations are, while others may not know where to start, or attempt to make something that has already been done/being worked on.

I fit in this category certainly :3 I don't know what is "too OP" or what is "too farfetched." Reading through the crafting list, I can also see where previous crafters have made items needlessly weak, so I think this might be a common concern.

Oct 16, 2015 18:10:00 GMT Dr. Ultima said:

It might be neat if we were to post abstracts (just a paragraph) of what we want to make and how we figure it will work before making a long crafting research thread only to get denied. Members could offer input to help and perhaps mods could look and preapprove research before it is actually tackled in RP.

Also cool! Once the "real thread" starts where we can list things I'll be super to put up the stuff I've been thinking of, or been asked to do it. It also means I will remember them xD. Members or (preferabbly) mods approving the rough idea would be nice, just so the crafter knows that the idea is acceptable (eg: instead of doing 10 posts on researching lightsabers as a blacksmith, then being told it can't be done by blacksmiths)

Oct 16, 2015 18:11:24 GMT Noctis Corvo said:

TL;DR I've had a plan, its just a little slow at the moment.

Awesome! While Sark won't be a guildie, I am always happy to join in on player events ^_^

Oct 16, 2015 20:59:51 GMT Saber said:

 I keep my crafts private because for one there is thievery and I like to protect against that (I've had stuff stolen before. Nothing against y'all, but it's not happening again). I

Out of interest, what happened? I don't quite understand the idea "stealing" a research. Is it just that you said (for example) 'I am going to research a tent,' then someone does it before you? And by extension, it means their name gets added as the creator instead of yours ...? That is the only thing I can think of when it comes to stealing, as once a recipe gets researched then anyone can learn it (I think?)

Oct 16, 2015 20:59:51 GMT Saber said:

The one difficulty with this all is the idea that you have everything you need to make a craft from the start, especially research threads. I think that should be changed. If an alchemist needs some sort of metal object, I don't think they should be able to get it unless they talk to a blacksmith. Even if the thread is just two posts (the two meeting, the blacksmith making the item, and then the trade occurring), I think it should be done. It alleviates the "I don't need anyone because I can just poof it into my hands" ideal. Sure, it's annoying when you're a mechanic because you're working with metal anyways (like Hiro making his trains), but I think it would have been a bit better to force compilation threads. It may slow research to a crawl because people don't want to ask for help, but if they really want something then they'll ask. It'll also keep random crafts from being made because the restriction may not be worth what has to be done.[/opinion]

I could see this working really well, or really poorly. For an average crafter like me, if I needed to post to one of the 2 active blacksmiths saying "Can I please buy 5 nails for this boot" it would be a bit of a pain ... but for researching complex things I think it could be fun (for instance) to have to go to a blacksmith for them to make a tailor a special, extra-thick needle so the tailor can pierce dragonhide.
... But then requiring a special item to make a craft has been phased out because it was a lot of work on mods & players for little gain and implied the only crafters that existed are OCs who are currently posting.

Oct 17, 2015 2:15:19 GMT Fletcher said:

Saber was a big help a couple of days ago when explaining limitations of our craft system and research

Ooh, a post from some of the old hands like Bene & Saber would be great for some of us newer people!

[Icyferno]

Oct 16, 2015 18:10:00 GMT Dr. Ultima said:

Crafts that need two professions are the bane of existence!

Yet with all the limitations on what crafting classes can and cannot do, it is necessary for certain things. If I wanted to make, say, an air balloon, I'd need Tailors for the cloth thingy on top, Alchemists/Summoners for the fire, and Woodcrafters for the wooden container to hold people. It would not be practical to use just one Tailor to make the whole air balloon by himself.

However, the issue of finding active crafters for collaborative crafting would be difficult. There is a possible discussion about how this affects speedcrafting, but that isn't the focus here. Yet.

For the record, I allow people to work on whatever junk I put up in my research queue - So long as they inform me in some manner. Not many would know, since I didn't really state that anyway (should've done that, in hindsight), nor do people even look at my shop thread. On the plus side, there aren't many Pharmacists around (because nobody likes it), so a small community helps to keep conflict minimal.

---

Building on @shadowsaiph's idea.

A public repository of research queues would be a good way to prevent double-researching. The simplest way I see this being done is to make a thread with guidelines on how to file for a research... patent? Blueprint? Whatever works. People post in that thread to announce what they are planning to make, and they are a given a timeframe, of, say, one month to make the research claim, with extension grants should the person request it. This makes it easier to track people stealing ideas, since you can compare the dates of the posts. This is of course assuming everyone knows about such a thread, which is fairly unlikely unless it is in a really prominent place.

This thread would ideally be separate from any threads pertaining to finding research partners to prevent clogging up with pointless posts. Go and make friends on your own.

With this in mind, I agree with what Sayha has suggested, that a dedicated subforum with the necessary guidelines be set up. This facilitates not just ensuring ideas are not stolen before completion of a project, but also to find collaboration and make requests. If there are any issues with such an idea, I do not see any major problems, except that a certain someone (definitely not me) is going to have a hard time completing his research queue, given exams and army right after that.

Naturally, feel free to discuss this, or toss up another idea. If you need me, I might not be here - I am running the last mile. But if everyone else can come to a consensus, it's probably worth doing.

[Dr. Ultima]

1) The only problem with the patent system is that it is another bureaucracy for the website and thus needs someone else to watch over it. Not only would this be a burden, there is also the potential to lock ideas behind a waiting period if someone goes inactive and many of us often do...

2) For clarification, I am against needing another crafter for smaller, or even very small things, such as.... a shoe where it would be difficult to craft without, say, a tailor for shoelaces. That is actually a bad example because tailoring covers leather working but that may also be a case in point. What if/ why isn't leather working its own profession?

I am all for needing collaborative crafting for big things such as a hot air balloon. Those are awesome rp opportunities well and above what the noble shoe example could offer....

The solution to this 'dilemma' however is something I am drawing a blank on. Maybe there should be npc crafters who can craft up to a certain low levels common ingredients for rp's sake? Maybe this could be reflected in material costs as a kind of penalty. I am unsure if this opens a portal for abuse.

[Sark]

Oct 17, 2015 20:24:48 GMT Dr. Ultima said:

]I am all for needing collaborative crafting for big things such as a hot air balloon. Those are awesome rp opportunities well and above what the noble shoe example could offer....

The solution to this 'dilemma' however is something I am drawing a blank on. Maybe there should be npc crafters who can craft up to a certain low levels common ingredients for rp's sake? Maybe this could be reflected in material costs as a kind of penalty. I am unsure if this opens a portal for abuse.

I do exactly this! In my solos Sark has bought things like a mallet from a blacksmith and I think he stole something from another craft ... It makes sense that there are more than just the currently active OCs who are crafting, so having needless transactions between a OCs seems, well, needless. Simple stuff from other crafts like mana crystals or nails I have always felt comes under the material fee ^^

Research I feel should have more input though between multiple professions. While things are still in the trial and error stage an alchemist and tailor night work together a lot to make a talking doll, but the actual finished craft recipe I feel could makde by either by themselves. At that point the process is well known so you can order the mana /cloth off NPCs as part of your material fee.

PS: don't limit tailor more ;-; compared to most of the subclasses* we can do so little as is. no magic weapons or explosives or flashlights for us :P
*except artisan and woodcrafter who do even less

[Dr. Ultima]

Indeed, let's not kick tailoring in the shins, lol. You will always have a market from us crazy cosmetic fashionistas at the very least~!

[Fletcher]

I've decided to be a bit more proactive about this and have starting devising joint-craft recipes for people to research together. To hell with keeping it secret, the only way to really get a broader scope of things than we already do is to mix and match crafting talents to unlock things. Dorian and Sayha have been given a quest by me to devise something which they were stoked for, and I'm using that as a trial before sending out more 'quests' as it were.

If it all goes well, I would move to get a brainstorm going of all the things we could possibly make or want to make, assign crafting talents to those, and then divvy them amongst people that may be interested.

[Deleted]

So far my Chef work is keeping to pace, but I have yet to start researching stuff, though I plan to get into the game pretty soon~

In any case, I'm very interested to see how this committee pans out. ^3^

[Noctis Corvo]

This is just an idea, but what if we actually did an IC creation of a committee dedicated to research and stuff? It could work similar to a guild, but it would be much less formal, and much more a public membership sort of thing? that way no matter your previous or current affiliations with guilds and whatnot, we could have this as a sort of intellectual group dedicated to just researching possibilities of mixing not only crafting, but possibly roleplay classes and possibly, to an extent, even main classes. I know personally I've even had ideas of experimenting with the effects that the heretic's miasma corruption might have upon the skills or abilities of other classes (corruption seems to play a big role later in the game for modifying the heretic's playstyle, and many of his late game abilities depend on various levels of it, making me think that it may have similar effects upon other classes). Anyway, if others would be interested, we could start this committee at any point and begin research.

(EDIT: I'm aware that this is probably restating the entire process of events so far in the thread, but if so, im just repeating it so that way I understand it as well)

[Fletcher]

I'm up for it being an IC thing; I've designed my personal house to be a research facility on one floor with living space for researchers on the level above.

If we do make this an IC thing, I'm happy to be on or lead the committee as needed.

[Deleted]

IC sounds like a good idea! I'm up for joining it if we make it.

[Sark]

Oct 23, 2015 23:06:13 GMT Fletcher said:

I'm up for it being an IC thing; I've designed my personal house to be a research facility on one floor with living space for researchers on the level above.

If we do make this an IC thing, I'm happy to be on or lead the committee as needed.

I am not too familiar with guild housing. If your home does end up as the new St Panny's, would it be possible for there to be several rooms that grant the [craft] + 2? Characters could even donate 50g (a nominal amount) whenever they craft something at your place to put it towards room upgrades ...

[Fletcher]

It'd be possible. At the moment I've only installed the Alchemy lab and the Research lab, but spec'ing everything for INN and ING in terms of housing stats. Given I've got two more levels to buy up, the remaining specialty rooms could be those crafting rooms.