Generalized AP

[tehm]

Basically what the title says. It is a long standing tradition in episodic fiction to only include "the interesting bits".

Everyone "Knows" that Homer Simpson works 40 hours a week at the nuclear plant despite the fact that he is rarely shown at the job. Hank Hill's defining quality is that he "sells propane, and propane accessories"; even though we rarely see him DOING this job it is safe to say that Hank is an expert when it comes to propane yeah?

My suggestion is to make "AP" generic. AP would come strictly from your posts rather than trying to partition those posts and figure out exactly which ones could best be described as crafting, which RP, and which main class. In your claim you would still subdivide this AP per normal, you would just not be required to divvy them out and explain how each AP came from a thread specific to that endeavor.

This suggestion would not (to my mind) necessitate any change to the crafting system; if you want to craft a sword and have a sword you'd still need to write out 3 posts (or whatever) about actually MAKING said sword in order to claim it... but I believe that by making AP general rather than specific you could both minimize the amount of work required by the mods processing claims AND make the playerbase at large happier as they could now write specifically what THEY wanted to write concentrating primarily on THEIR ideas of characterization, world building, etc... rather than trying to shoe-horn in references to looking at the trees, or pulling out an art kit in the middle of conversation purely so that they could "claim the post" for the intended AP type.

tehm

[Kumori]

Since I was speaking with him, I, Rien, approve of this message

[Deleted]

In a word, no.

In more words, no, this won't work.

---

First of all, let's address this interesting bits issue since... uh, it isn't an issue. You can already do exactly what the Simpsons does for episode purposes; assume that Homer does his job and move on. If your hardcore badass swashbuckler goes out to kill 100 wolves a day, he can do that, and you don't have to write about it every day for the rest of your days on the forum [unless you wanted to]. A fundamental aspect of writing - forum RP include - is the ability to acknowledge that this happens and go with it.

The problem I have with this support ticket is that it assumes that you /have/ to do this stuff to get anywhere on the forum when you do not.

You don't have to write a full thread on mindlessly making objects to rank up your Crafting AP; simply mentioning a small stitching task or writing a note to a fellow player in thread is enough to level up your Tailor and Scribe skills. My casual wiping down of the table in the middle of my conversation with the barkeep, in an effort to show off my character's nervous habit, can be used to level up Housekeeper since I just cleaned.

"But Murdoc, you can do that under the current system and this new one!"

Yes, but there are some problems with this new system.

The first and formost being the fact that you should earn what you earn - I'm a believer in this system and the new one doesn't match this. I don't think that writing 10 threads on just chatting it up in the inn should magically jack up your Blacksmith skills, and I don't think that working on a thread for a week about stitching yourself a new dress should net you 10 levels in Swashbuckler.

The second issue lies in the fact that it... well, this still isn't simplifying anything. AP claims largely work the same way in both systems, so you're not fixing anything with that. If anything, the complications of having to switch the systems and then having to set up a way for people to apparently figure out how they want to spend their "new AP" feels like a step backwards in creativity and ingenuity in the current AP System, which works quite well.

If people are trying to "Shoe Horn" in pulling out art pads in a situation where its unwarranted, that is on them as Roleplayers and they are accountable for it, not the system itself.

Likewise, the argument of being able to write "What you want, your world building, etc" is basically possible under this system without any need for change, save for people to help with AP Claims instead of those people sitting around in the cbox trying to make new systems.

Thank you for your time.

[tehm]

Here's my problem with your retort; were we ACTUALLY in Elder Tales, this is how my character would REALLY level his crafting:

/*************START EXAMPLE***********/

The time had come.

Tehm was finally ready to power through his crafting so that he would be able to construct the walking stick he had been looking forward to since entering this world.
It had been an arduous task transporting all of the wood--250 pine planks, but in the end it would be worth it.

Taking the first of the planks up, tehm carefully sawed down the 6' plank into four 1" x 1" x 6' sections.
Taking his carving knife, he carefully set about removing the corners of each of the 1" x 1"s until what remained were four 6' pine dowels.

Taking up the first of these dowels, tehm set out with the roughest grit sandpaper he had been able to purchase and began making short work of the knife marks left by his carving knife. After a few minutes of sanding he moved to a smoother grit sandpaper and began
working on the feel of the rough staff until it seemed it would no longer give him splinters.

Throwing down the first of the completed dowels, he picked up the second rough dowel. Tehm set out with the roughest grit sandpaper he had been able to purchase and began making short work of the knife marks left by his carving knife. After a few minutes of sanding he moved to a smoother grit sandpaper and began working on the feel of the rough staff until it seemed it would no longer give him splinters.

Throwing down the second of the completed dowels, he picked up the third rough dowel. Tehm set out with the roughest grit sandpaper he had been able to purchase and began making short work of the knife marks left by his carving knife. After a few minutes of sanding he moved to a smoother grit sandpaper and began working on the feel of the rough staff until it seemed it would no longer give him splinters.

Throwing down the third of the completed dowels, he picked up the last of the rough dowels. Tehm set out with the roughest grit sandpaper he had been able to purchase and began making short work of the knife marks left by his carving knife. After a few minutes of sanding he moved to a smoother grit sandpaper and began working on the feel of the rough staff until it seemed it would no longer give him splinters.

Throwing down the last of the completed dowels, tehm picked up the next plank.

...

Taking the 250th plank up, tehm carefully sawed down the 6' plank into four 1" x 1" x 6' sections.
Taking his carving knife, he carefully set about removing the corners of each of the 1" x 1"s until what remained were four 6' pine dowels.

...

/*********END EXAMPLE************/

That's what my character would REALLY do. Give me about 20 minutes and I'll write a little python script that will generate all of that for you even. The problem isn't that this is bad writing, it's that this isn't roleplay!

Don't get me wrong... that's EXACTLY how my character would really level his woodworking. There wouldn't be any 4 month searches for the perfect tree or wiping down counters, or any of that. THIS is how you level up in an mmorpg...

But that isn't exciting, and I'm not going to write it. Would I like to be able to write whatever the hell I felt like and just take it as written that my character COULD always have done this "off screen" to level up his woodworking? Hell yeah. But apparently that's not to be.

So this is what you get. I'm tired of writing woodworking. I'll try to make the script a little more interesting to read than the above example, but that's how I'm leveling it.

neep you trees.

[Kumori]

Because this was originally my idea, and Tehm wrote it out because I was unable to on the phone, I will state my purposes as well as my response to Murdoc about the amendment of the system.

Purpose:
-To facilitate the staff in grading so that they do not have to check for every single detail of the post and can simply put word count as the means to count AP
-To allow more freedom in terms of RP so that it is not completely restricted to how you can use your other subclasses within the RP which otherwise may seem out of context (i.e. talking about someone's shirt while trying to discuss the effects of combat).
- To make thinks simple.

Now to address your concerns, Murdoc:

Feb 27, 2014 1:02:37 GMT @blackcoat said:

The first and formost being the fact that you should earn what you earn - I'm a believer in this system and the new one doesn't match this. I don't think that writing 10 threads on just chatting it up in the inn should magically jack up your Blacksmith skills, and I don't think that working on a thread for a week about stitching yourself a new dress should net you 10 levels in Swashbuckler.

In the current system, you can already do that. Let me show you what the rules say. I will bold the pertinent part so that it is easier to see..

Q: What if I do a thread where I use two classes in the same post? Like a ghost-hunting thread using both Monk and Exorcist skills? What if it's just a thread that involves talking?
A: For threads with multiple class uses, you would pick and choose which class you want to apply the AP toward. If you claim AP for Exorcist in that particular example, then you cannot claim the same post for Monk AP. However, you can claim the following post for Monk AP and not Exorcist AP. It's fine if you claim AP for different classes in one thread, just make sure you don't claim the same post twice. For threads where you don't use any classes, you are allowed to claim them for whatever classes you deem fitting, but you should note the situation. Like if you're in a thread where you're watching two people battle, you're certainly going to learn a bit more about combat even if you yourself did not battle at all.

Your problem with our system is already a problem that exists within the current system, and so, while your problem with it is warranted, you cannot say that the current system does not have that. While it does not pertain to the second of your complaints, I feel that experience is experience and should be distributed however you wish. For example, in a D&D setting, when you level up, you can level up skills however you wish. In an MMO, you can choose which skills to level up in certain games. In a forum-based RP, it would be easier this way in order to do grading.

And by all means... if all I need to do to level tailoring is to say "hey gais, your shirt is awesome" then that in itself is a flaw to the system that you hold so highly. If all I need is a one liner that looks 'remotely' like your craft skill like complimenting someone's shirt or noticing a tear, etc. then what stops people from doing one liners in a normal post to just level up a specific class. Why not just remove all restrictions?

Feb 27, 2014 1:02:37 GMT @blackcoat said:

The second issue lies in the fact that it... well, this still isn't simplifying anything. AP claims largely work the same way in both systems, so you're not fixing anything with that. If anything, the complications of having to switch the systems and then having to set up a way for people to apparently figure out how they want to spend their "new AP" feels like a step backwards in creativity and ingenuity in the current AP System, which works quite well.

It is simplifying it but not requiring the staff to re-read through every post to make sure the post is related to the class they are claiming for. It does not make it more difficult because the same template can be made and claiming can be done the same, it's just that people no longer have to be selective of their posts. It simplifies everyone's lives and doesn't require everyone to read through their posts to make sure their post is pertinent to the class or not pertitnent to any class. It becomes less hassle for both players and staff.

Feb 27, 2014 1:02:37 GMT @blackcoat said:

Likewise, the argument of being able to write "What you want, your world building, etc" is basically possible under this system without any need for change, save for people to help with AP Claims instead of those people sitting around in the cbox trying to make new systems.

This is a direct attack on a person who is trying to create a system that may help the staff out. Just because you do not see eye-to-eye with me or Tehm does not mean that this does not better the community. So before calling us out on saying we are "sitting around" in the cbox, you can come up with constructive ways to help the community too, instead of accusing us of sitting around.

[Hirosame]

Good day, and salutations. I would like to voice my own opinion, as to why this new system that you are proposing will not work on this site. There will be a few things that I say that cannot be proven, except for members and staff of a semi-old Proboard that we were part of. So, I'll have to ask you to take my word for it.

I would like to start by addressing the first thing that Kumori stated, in response to Blackcoat. The first thing was, of course, the acquisition of AP through rather sporadic means. What the rules say is that if you can incorporate it into something that you are presently doing, and if it makes logical sense to more people other than just yourself, then you can claim AP for it. This reason is why the moderators are in charge of reading through everything, so that it also makes sense to them. Being an ex-moderator where I graded a system much like this, I know exactly how it works. Blackcoat's point, however, is just that. His worry is that people will talk about things, which have NO RELATION to another one of their classes, and being able to put AP into that class or sub-class. This is completely pointless, as people could just power-level everything without even trying in a certain aspect.

That system was tried before on a previous site, and it was very easily exploited. One player actually managed to have their combat level 1/5th of the way towards the max. It is certainly much easier to level up, I'll grant you that. But like BC said, it makes no sense.

The second thing is a matter of the moderators, and I'm glad that you are taking them into consideration. However, they know exactly what they signed up for, and this was their system when they created the site. It is like this so people get their fair amount of AP, and for the right things. So, people can't just talk about random things, and getting experience to increase their combat class.

On a final note, please stop throwing insults around. It doesn't make anyone look better. And this goes to both parties. While I can understand and sympathize with BC, since we've had to deal with the same kind of thing before, it doesn't mean that that needs to be applied here. I hope I have made my case about it, and that you will take my reply into consideration.

~ Hiro

[Kumori]

But the thing is, the current system does not stop a person from doing what you stated. You can write posts that have no correlation to any class and can apply it to any class you deem fit. You can abuse the same thing regardless of what you do. I'm simply making it easier on all sides. I understand the need to keep things pertinent, but I added this bit a little later, so I'll post it here as well.

And by all means... if all I need to do to level tailoring is to say "hey gais, your shirt is awesome" then that in itself is a flaw to the system that you hold so highly. If all I need is a one liner that looks 'remotely' like your craft skill like complimenting someone's shirt or noticing a tear, etc. then what stops people from doing one liners in a normal post to just level up a specific class. Why not just remove all restrictions?

You'd be doing the same thing, and in my opinion, is much worse than just claiming AP that doesn't relate to the class.

And in my case, if I had the time to RP more, I can power play without leveling my crafting class... I can focus all my RPing on my Main class and RP class and level those two only? And if ever I reach my end game, is my future AP no longer usable? Can I not use the AP gained to further my level 1 crafting class?

The system is abusable regardless of what you do. If you really wanted to make sure no one power played, make sure people have to level their subclasses evenly, but that creates even more headache and complications.

[Saber]

I have one thing to say to this:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."    

The system isn't broken.

[Hirosame]

Well, EVERY system has an exploitation. You can absolutely exploit this current system, by just posting. However, like I said before, if it makes sense to NOT ONLY YOURSELF, then it should get by. So long as you made an effort in your writing, and the mods can clearly see it, they will award AP. However, since there hasn't been a rejected AP claim (as far as I know), there isn't really a guideline as to what will and will not be allowed. However, I'm sure that since this thread exists, mods will take more care to observe, just to make sure people get credit for what they post.

You can also just as easily raise your main class, without raising your crafting or sub classes. If you look around, you'll already see people doing that. However, I understand your problem with getting max level, and that is a genuine problem. But, since no one is getting near that point right now, there may not even be a system to take care of that as of yet. I'm confident that the mods have a system, or will think of one, in due time. We just need to have faith in the mods~

All in all, what I'm saying is that if you can imagine a logical way to show that you punching a goblin will give you knowledge about your crafting class (this is an example, do not take literally), and you can explain it in a way that it makes sense to others, then you deserve the AP. There is nothing stopping you from being creative, just make sure to use sound logic. So giving people anything they want for doing just something doesn't really reward people for what they did. It has to relate to the topic. For example, you're not going to give your kid a motorcycle for cleaning up their room. You're going to say thank you, and good job. Maybe, if they were good, you'd give them a little something to show that you appreciate them for doing it, and encourage them to do it again, but on their own. You reward them for doing good, and not for the sake of just doing something.

[Elkeid]

As someone who modded for a forum (same site as Hiro, in fact) that once had an easily exploitable "SP" system for a while, I cannot see much merit in generalized AP. While it seemed like a good idea to a few people, the only people it helped were the ones that constantly posted or made lengthy posts. The more casual players couldn't keep up, and a few of the higher players concentrated on breaking the system to the point where we needed to rework the system so that people could not dump all of their points into their attack stat. The admin at the time who wantonly changed the system either did not realize or cared about how broken the system was, so there were no regulations in place to keep a level five player (an actual player and not an exaggeration, mind) from crafting a level 100 sword. Furthermore, the system made things too easy and did not encourage much creativity. It also caused a greater rift between the veterans and newbies. Unless a new person joining the site had Saber's (sporadic) determination, it was highly unlikely that they would be able to catch up. Basically, it caused more trouble than it "fixed".

Feb 27, 2014 3:27:31 GMT Kumori said:

The system is abusable regardless of what you do. If you really wanted to make sure no one power played, make sure people have to level their subclasses evenly, but that creates even more headache and complications.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and at least with the current system things can be regulated. As for powerleveling, people like Saber will find themselves crippled in many ways, chiefly gear and skills, as content for higher levels is largely unavailable.

To be frank, I'm too skeptical to see how this system is any better than the current; it's too simple and flawed on its own. I also cannot see how the current system hampers rp, unless the person lacks creativity or has difficulty rping out their chosen classes. As for making things "simple," what's the point in having a system if there are few regulations? Why not go full freeform, eliminating a good chunk of work for the mods to fuss over?


In regards to Tehm's plight; Green is not a creative color~.

[Deleted]

Only thing I feel necessary to post is an apology for writing my reply when I didn't have sleep and therefore made underlying jabs, so I do apologize for that. Everything else I could argue has been argued for me so far, specifically in reference to Elkeid's link. The issue seems to be a disparity between what the roleplayer wants to do and what the character was designed to do, and perhaps the character(s) needs the tweaks as opposed to the system.

I do not apologize for my statements and remain in the belief that this new system does not fix anything, nor does it improve upon how to manage the new or old system in any way, nor does it fail to have less issues than the current system. As of this post, my vote is still a No.

[Renai]

It's not like I have a full understanding of the entire argument here, but part of what I'm seeing is a claim that "this already exists". That is to say, "you can already claim standing around looking at architecture as Woodcrafting AP" or the like. To quote the relevant section:

Q: What if I do a thread where I use two classes in the same post? Like a ghost-hunting thread using both Monk and Exorcist skills? What if it's just a thread that involves talking?
A: For threads with multiple class uses, you would pick and choose which class you want to apply the AP toward. If you claim AP for Exorcist in that particular example, then you cannot claim the same post for Monk AP. However, you can claim the following post for Monk AP and not Exorcist AP. It's fine if you claim AP for different classes in one thread, just make sure you don't claim the same post twice. For threads where you don't use any classes, you are allowed to claim them for whatever classes you deem fitting, but you should note the situation. Like if you're in a thread where you're watching two people battle, you're certainly going to learn a bit more about combat even if you yourself did not battle at all.

Part of the discussion appears to bring this point up often. "This is already possible" is what I'm seeing. However, I think that viewpoint is unfair and incorrect.

I feel that this section exists as a courtesy to players. And certainly, it can be abused, but part of any roleplay site is having a certain level of trust between the moderators and the userbase. Someone once said something (and I'm paraphrasing because the exact quote and source eludes me) to the effect of, "Half the responsibility for the site is in the hands of the userbase, the other half is in the hands of the mods." That is to say, this is a joint effort between the moderators and the players. I hope people haven't come to RP for the sake of breaking the system and abusing the userbase.

From what I see and understand, the part of the rules that is repeatedly brought up to point out "this already exists" is one of courtesy that is born of mutual respect. I feel the idea there is to give players a grace zone with which to RP as the please without grand restrictions, while still sticking to the core theme of, "You advance based on what you experience." That this exists at all should not be used as a means to abuse the system or a springboard to powerleveling, but rather as a safety net or a handrail. It doesn't seem right to me that so much of what is being said is contingent upon this as an "integral part of the rules" when really, this just reads as the moderator staff being nice and trusting the userbase not to completely abuse the system. It allows for more freedom in roleplay, but hopefully not at the expensive of reason and mechanics.

As for the mechanics of the system and such, I share in the viewpoint that this change isn't really required. It doesn't appear to facilitate better roleplaying implicitly and I've gotten to Level 20 Woodcrafting without endless repition. I personally had group and research threads and those got Renai to Level 20 in Woodcrafting. They were fun and interesting and because I was creating new things I didn't feel like I was up against a wall. I think that there are ways to have the roleplay be engaging or interesting, even for something that might seemingly be boring. I feel as though it's important to realize that for almost any skill or type, there are ways to make it fun. For instance, Renai has a compulsion to clean that fits with his housekeeper skill, whereas Blackcoat wants to run an inn. There are ways to make it interesting, but if you feel boxed in in terms of what you can and can't write, I think maybe a step back is required? There is a possibility that you're not seeing all the options available. Tehm made a comment that "this is not bad writing, but it's not RP", but I feel this lacks basis and backing. I can't accept this claim without a proper explanation, as this appears to be the premise of much of the claim.

As this continues (or doesn't), I may give more input, but this is my stance so far.

[tehm]

Feb 27, 2014 13:21:12 GMT Renai said:

 Tehm made a comment that "this is not bad writing, but it's not RP", but I feel this lacks basis and backing. I can't accept this claim without a proper explanation, as this appears to be the premise of much of the claim.

As this continues (or doesn't), I may give more input, but this is my stance so far.

I believe the quote being talked about here is:  "The problem isn't that this is bad writing, it's that this isn't roleplay!"

The reason I suggest that this isn't RP is that I won't have even written it. How could I have been RPing if I didn't even bother to write the drivel that someone else is now forced to read?

I likely did a poor job of articulating my argument in the above post so let me sum up:

I took a look at every post I've written about woodworking for experience and I realized that not only was I terribly ashamed of the poor quality of this writing, in the time it took me to actually WRITE those posts, I could have created a script that would have generated them VERBATIM. Further this script could have kept on churning them out. It wouldn't be that difficult to have this script produce 50,000 words on the topic of woodworking without ever repeating a sentence once.

And to reuse the quote: "The problem isn't that this is bad writing, it's that this isn't roleplay!"

Link very relevant


Click on the above, put in your name, hit generate. Boom! You've just written a complex research paper that no one else on earth has ever written before. Why does this work? Because it's meaningless garbage.


"Using the biggest section of the scrap that remained of the original block, tehm carefully marked off a 3/4"x3/4"x2.5" section with the tip of his carving knife then set about drilling a hole with the small hand drill all the way through the length of it. After drilling he trimmed away all of the excess using the saw and then proceeded once again to round off the corners with the carving knife then sand it smooth with increasingly fine grits of sandpaper."

Lovingly hand written or produced by computer? You be the judge. Can't tell? I'll tell you the secret why... because it's drivel.



It seems to me that several of the arguments against this plan seem to be leveled at the idea that under the "generalized ap" framework, one could power-game the system by using this "woodworking generator" to churn out posts for Monk AP so that I could power through the levels and be the next Saber. My retort to this is: "To what end?".

Am I willing to use an automata to write the woodworking so that I, as a human being, never HAVE to write another woodworking post again, writing only about the woodworking that I find particularly interesting etc? Absolutely. But the drive to do that stems only from the drive to not have to write about woodworking. I didn't sign up on these boards for a level 90 character, that's a meaningless thing, numbers in a database. We don't even have the systems in place to make level a meaningful number! I signed up to roleplay. To write engaging stories that I would want to read and that hopefully maybe someone else would want to as well...

But I can't do it. Apparently I'm not talented enough. The stuff I write when it comes to woodworking is garbage and the overall narrative of my character would be vastly stronger for its elimination--so when Rien suggested this idea I thought it was aces. If I could just delete all of the woodworking posts I'd written thus far from my character's narrative, redistribute the points and call it a day it would have made me ecstatic. Technically I would have been throwing away AP, but it wouldn't have mattered because "screw AP". What the hell does "AP" mean anyways? It would have enhanced the narrative of my character and the writing would have been stronger for it. 

Isn't that what these types of forums are for? Quality writing and role-play?

/sadface

[Hirosame]

To start things off with my current response, I'd like to mention that both Elkeid and I have both tried to run the program you used. It didn't work at all, but that may be a localization thing. However, after having tried a few times, getting the program to crash a few more times without a response, I am questioning its validity. If you say it works, however, I will believe you. In the meantime, for my own stubbornness, I do not think of it as a viable source of writing.

Which brings me to my next point: Why use a Computer-Generated post to create a story? Isn't that just as good as copying someone else's homework, and claiming it as your own? Sure, you can put your own name in it, but what good does that do? What does it provide to the community? What does it provide to yourself? In a word: Nothing. It's a blank check, of sorts. You can get your program to write you up a blank sheet, and all you have to do is put your name in it in different places. That's not creativity, and, in general, that's not role playing. That's not what this site is for. And, your system that you are proposing encourages people to simply regurgitate their old posts, therefore breaking the system further. If that's all I had to do, I'd just keep re-posting the same thing, over and over again, and reach maximum level in a very short time frame. It doesn't make sense to give people what they want for doing nothing, and I hope you're noticing that recurring theme.

My point after that is the question as to why this whole thing is being talked about in the first place. If you don't want to reach maximum level, then why argue for a new system? Granted, this is aimed towards Tehm's response, who is only defending Kumori, so I apologize for lumping both of you together for everything. But, since you both seem to be of the same belief on this matter, then I'll have to assume that neither of you are here for the levels. Both of you are here to RP, have fun, and create a story for your characters, and yourself. That's great! More power to you! That's the kind of drive that this site hopes to fulfill in others. But, if you don't want to level up swiftly, then why have this system in place, which basically lets you level up as fast as you can copy/paste the same text over and over again? Your argument about making AP easier to obtain for all classes is contradicted by your mention of only being here to RP, and not level up.

Now, let's dissect this a bit further, shall we? If you do not wish to get to the maximum level, then the current system is good enough. You can have long posts, and get a moderate amount of AP for it. Look at Saber, and his astounding ability to make 1000+ word posts on a regular basis. He can easily chock up 3000+ words in a single thread, and do it all again within a day. Most people I know get weary after typing up 1500 words in one sitting, including myself. However, since Saber has the drive to do this, as well as the ability, he is rewarded for his determination and consistence. But, he does this to level up, and be the strongest Hokage player on the site. He probably also does that because he loves to RP as well, but let's be honest, he wants those levels. Shifting focus back to here, we can see that there are plenty of new players, just getting into RPing, wondering if they can even catch up to some of the level 10+ members on the site. And the answer is yes, they can. Just type. Just keep on typing. You'll get better over time, and it will even effect your ability to type outside of the boards. It's overall good for an RP'er to practice the amount they type, and the quality. You expand your horizons, and in the long run, makes you more eligible for things like scholarships, just because you can type better and more fluently.

Also, if you don't want to write about woodcrafting, then change your crafting class. 250 Gold, or 5 posts, and you won't have to worry about it anymore. Go with what you want to have fun with; something you want to write about. Classes here aren't static, and you can change them whenever you want, so long as you pay for it with the in-game currency. If you need directions to doing that, please let me know, or any of the moderators know. We can get you squared away with something you'd rather be doing. And, if you don't want to work on your crafting class, subclass, or even main class, then don't. You are not restricted here, and you can almost literally do anything you want.

[Kumori]

My initial goal for this idea was to have a faster turnarond. My personal goal is to catch up with the higher levels, because who wants to be stuck at level 1? My only assumption to why it takes so long is because of the time required for the mods to work towards completing a grading. I don't know how thoroughly they read through each post, however if they do read through the entirety of the post, it may take longer, dependent on the reader.

In turn, less work load, faster results, happy mods, happy community. 

Obviously, my goal is to rp, but I still hate being "weak" especially in an rp that can very well be and most likely be stat based with possible pvp. But I also don't have the luxury of rping 20 hrs a day. Just my thoughts. The people have spoken, and I have nothing against the current system, I was just trying to improve it

[Murasaki]

I would suggest that considering that people show that they are receptive of the current system, that you could try to suggest a system for the members to help in the AP grading process. We've been personally thinking of using the member helper suggestion to also people to 'verify' someone's claim. If the claim is verified by enough people, we can pass it without a close check. If there's any way to do this sort of thing while limiting abuse factor, I'd like to hear such discussions as a support ticket.

[Deleted]

Hi, my name's Lowen, I'm pretty new to the whole idea of role playing and crafting classes. I've not used mine yet, but if I might say something generalizing AP would take away from Log Horizon's cannon material factors in this role play. Log Horizon has shown that every character gets one main class and one sub class. This sub class is usually a crafting based class and although it has not been entirely shown how the characters all went through learning their crafting skills (due to the high levels of most of the characters) you have to take into account that some of these characters did repetitively work to get their skills up to the highest ranks possible. In the anime it was shown that Serra cleaned Nyanta's house in Susukino during her captivity there many times to the point it was sparkling simply because the streets were too dangerous to travel and the fact remained that she could not leave the city. She indicated it was repetitive but honestly there was not much she could do for herself based on the fact her class, the druid class, at her level then could not allow her to leave the place.

Nyanta after the rescue then spoke of the secrets of cooking to Shirou, Naotsugu, Serrara, and Akatsuki before they returned to Crescent Moon and Akibahara. He indicated a skill like cooking required much physical labor on part of the player's efforts because this was not a game anymore. Cooking required knowledge and simply ingredients before but after the apocalypse it was clear they had to put physical labor in part to their cooking based on how much lower level cooks failed and mad purple mush. That said, Minori is the strongest example of crafting skills after this where she and a group of thirty or so low level adventurers had to produce XP potions for high level players on demand. When they were not called for that all players were forced to train their crafting skills to raise money for the guild Hamelin. Hamelin made her work with quite a few other sewing skilled based characters until her hands bled. This is shown by the fact that during those episodes she constantly wore bandages from pins having damaged her. I would not doubt her eye sight was pretty bad under the lighting shown too. The fact that it seems she does not have this damage later can be justified as either her hard work having become easier, or simply that she healed her hands after that experience, or possibly that the straps on her hands now cover most of the damage she received from then.

My point is, and I am sure others would agree to an extent, the cannon material supports that crafting requires hard work. Which ultimately leads back to the idea of why generalizing ability points would be bad. It would promote gaining some skills for no reason at all. And frankly make this role play no different then something D&D. I like D&D myself, you get to choose what skills you want to put on your character after a sessions or two generally of role play, but by doing this they cover multiple kinds of race abilities, deities, and powers and allow a player to choose what they want to a certain extent because they have their own system. It's bad to copy off of others' systems of role play to the extent that I think this may be suggesting since by giving people too much choice you can actually confuse them and make them think "Is it okay for me to go ahead and do this?". The site already allows one to switch up crafting classes and I personally feel that if you have trouble with wood crafting you can either research it to improve how to better make it fun for you, have a person join you in doing this activity, or simply switch to an easier to write crafting class. You can do that with main classes and RP classes too. But all that's ultimately up to you.

[Haneroze]

@lowen: You're actually badly informed about Minori's case. According to a piece of Wiki I've stumbled on, after she got out of there, she changed Subclass to Apprentice.


But anyway, I also follow Tehm and Rien in their argument. See, as a Roleplayer, I choose the subclasses that my character would have chosen. My character chose the Pharmacist subclass because she wanted potions to enhance her fighting style, but she did not expect the world was going to be real. The moment I'll have her try to draw, she'll hesitate between keeping the pharmacist job and switching to Artisan so that she can keep drawing like in IRL.

In the event she stays a Pharmacist: I actually know -nothing- about Pharmacy. Writing about it will thus be very hard. Reaching a high level Pharmacist by writing nonsense and just assuming it works? Seems impossible to me.

In the event she switches to Artisan: I like Roleplaying, and I like drawing. But I just don't see how I could roleplay about drawing. Because drawing is a stroke there, a stroke there, a stroke there, a stroke there, a stroke there, a stroke there, and look I've just finished making the eye's line-art, remains 3938 more strokes! If she switches, let me tell you, 80% of the AP will come from searching paint ingredients, 15% of the AP will come from stumbling into beautiful views that are perfect for a nice picture, the 5% remaining will come from actually drawing. Because I do not want to roleplay about Drawing, I know how repetitive it is action-wise. I'd just summarize it and make the paint complete in less than 100 words.


Now, there's another problem with the current system. Mostly affecting RP classes. There's some classes where you can't really write a lot about them. Early-level Scholar, for example, can only do one thing: Identify an opponent. And how long does this action take? Two lines. In order to level it, I have to claim 10 lines worth of talking/fighting + 2 lines worth of Evaluate into Scholar AP. As it stands out, in my situation: 100% of my Shaman AP comes from talking, 100% of my Scholar AP comes from fighting. And there are a few other RP classes out there that one can't write extensively on it, and thus have to make sure the post it's placed in is as big as possible. And it will most likely remain like that, because Scholar is only used in battles, and I have to make sure Scholar's level is as close as possible to main class' level, as equallish level reflects how my character levels her Shaman and Scholar classes.


Now, as for previously mentionned points:

Feb 27, 2014 2:46:49 GMT Kumori said:

-To allow more freedom in terms of RP so that it is not completely restricted to how you can use your other subclasses within the RP which otherwise may seem out of context (i.e. talking about someone's shirt while trying to discuss the effects of combat).

You guys say it's not a problem. But what if it does not goes according to character's personality? For example, if someone plays a character that never gets distracted, he wouldn't go out of a conversation to go examinate a flower or a tree in order to get AP. If one feels the need to go out of his character's personality in order to claim necessary AP, then isn't this proof that the system is flawed? We, as role-players, wish to give AP to classes that our character levels up, and so, we have to develop subtle anti-RP tricks to give the AP to the class we want to see leveled.

Feb 27, 2014 1:57:04 GMT tehm said:

But that isn't exciting, and I'm not going to write it. Would I like to be able to write whatever the hell I felt like and just take it as written that my character COULD always have done this "off screen" to level up his woodworking? Hell yeah. But apparently that's not to be.

That's another problem. We, as a Roleplayer, choose to write what we deem interesting. Battles are interesting, that's one of many's main reasons we're roleplaying in this kind of universe. Any sort of character development are interesting, it's a reason why we roleplay instead of just playing a game. Threads where we let out our character's personality shine are also interesting. But not all of us deems crafting as something interesting, and so, unless our character gets character development or has his personality shine during a crafting thread, we choose not to write it. It's also the same in any Manga, in any Anime, in any Movie. If an intensive training is boring, the author is just gonna show the start, maybe a few scenes in the middle, and the results. In One Piece, for all the characters at Time Skip, they really just showed what their training consists of, then showed results after the Time Skip with an occasionnal Flash Back to a break-through or character development that happened during the training.

Now, the thing is, because we're limited to giving AP on classes we roleplay as, I can't give the AP to classes my character trains off-thread. Her levels reflect what I chose to RP, not how she decided to spread her training times. This is, in my view, unacceptable. So I'd have to dedicate a thread to something I do not wish to Roleplay in order to balance levels toward how I view her levels? Usually, it's at the times I'm forced to do something I don't want to that I quit games and activities.

[lukavminaev]

Hmm, how about make it just 'at least', like 'at least one of the thread that listed, stated about doing something related to leveling his/her main class/subclass' or 'at least two or three posts from one of the thread that listed, stated about doing something related to leveling his/her main class/subclass'. That way it will be giving more freedom for player to choose what his/her next character building will be. For example, someone make thread about battling, then make another thread about leveling housekeeper skill, then make another thread about leveling tailoring skill. He/she want to make the next thread about battle with housekeeper skill leveled up. He/She can create AP claim and store all the threads to be burned for housekeeper skill. Since it is His/Her Idea to make next thread with his/her housekeeper skill leveled up, he/she sill have planed an excuse to not having his/her main class or tailoring subclass leveled yet.
Well, just a sugestion. I will adapt to any kind of end decission.